[House Rules] Should allies receive a bid?

[taamvan]

@Mursilis

Thanks Mursilis, it only took me 191 games and 2 mod attempts to come up with that simple solution. We are getting into more “late games” where things aren’t decided until after the fall of moscow. If Germany survives the fall of moscow with most or all of its planes, and 5 or so tanks, with the OOB bonuses on top of that, it will almost always win. Argo has convinced me that Moscow will fall in the majority of games. The Ger/Italy money and starting forces simply cannot be stopped. The questions then are

1. did UK West build 3 factories, early? Did they waste money on anything but factories and plugging troops into the ME?
2. Does Germany have so much money and income after the fall of moscow such that with 4 eastern factories and what survived, it can handily a) take london because the defenders left b) take egypt by overwhelming the whole game build of UK west with the just the survivors and the late game build of Germany?

In the OOB game, Germany just needs to be patient, and it will eventually win. This is because they have like 80+ and a bunch of free bonuses and factories, whereas UK at most has 50 and usually more like 40 to fuel 3-4 factories. Russia cannot take Iraq or Persia–it will never have the $$ to build that many units and once its taken them, UK cannot do so. Japan can get shut completely down and this dynamic doesnt change.

[taamvan]

This is also why taking cyprus or malta is so powerful—denying the UK that bonus all game is another 50 dollars in 10 turns

[Mursilis]

@taamvan
I am wondering if you do Gargantua’s start as Soviet Union which is 6 tanks and building tanks and a few arty with infantry. Tank spamming with the SU is a must for countering the Germans. I was also wondering if you considered making Leningrad worth 5 again since this would make a northern push a bit more desirable since a problem with the game for the germans is that there is a TON of money south and not much north, plus you are further away from moscow. What are your thoughts?

[BJones]

What does that mean? Should they receive a bid?

[barnee]

@BJones

With experienced players of equal skill, the Axis will almost always win unless they get diced hard. There’s a few ways to do it, but usually, the “bid” gives the Allies x amount of cash that they can spend on units and place them before game start.

Once again, usually, you can only place one unit in a TTy/SZ and there has to be units of that player already in those areas.

You can look at some “league” games for examples of this.

link text

A bid probably isn’t necessary for inexperienced/new players.

[taamvan]

Both are fine ideas. Germany will often stack E Poland without the tanks. The total numbers of Russian troops on Moscow is going to be lower whenever you G1, they buy premium units, or Russia tries counterattacks. All of these weaken the final siege, but its typically a losing battle anyway.

You make a good point about Leningrad. Germany really only has 1 money direction to go, in any event (east). Still, the money $$ amounts for both Germany and Japan seem a bit abusive when they exceed what the USA can rational do (75-80). The goal balance wise is to pit a raging america that may have lost its first wave against a germany who has lost the better part of that ground army, but also likely has a big airforce, a big payday in hand, India, Moscow, etc. That late game is dynamic and pretty fun. 53 German tanks, 14 bombers, 12 other planes vs about 40 junk UK units isnt…its a blowout on VCs

[barnee]

@Mursilis
went ahead and added the Attack 4 Cruiser to triplea. A3 +1A with BB D3 C12

Probably a little different than what you’re trying but :) Let me know what you decide on and I’ll try and set it up on triplea.

Face to Face is arguably the funnest way to play but testing stuff works good on a computer.

Anyway let me know if you want the taamvan mod adjusted for Lenningrad =5 bucks. Can make the other NOs stay at 3 and make that one different.

One can obviously add units however they want. Just can’t change the NOs : )

Too bad it didn’t work out for ya. Sounded promising. What would you do forJapan ?

[General 6 Stars]

Ah finally somebody testing a suggestion.

[M36]

Well here’s my two cents. I don’t play online or competitively, I just play for fun with friends so we have never once used a bid. It’s far more fun coming up with creative strategies to counter the sheer power Japan starts with.

[simon33]

@M36 said in [House Rules] Should allies receive a bid?:

Well here’s my two cents. I don’t play online or competitively, I just play for fun with friends so we have never once used a bid. It’s far more fun coming up with creative strategies to counter the sheer power Japan starts with.

That’s all well and good but once you start playing people with much more optimal axis strategies you really do need a bid.

Alternatively, your group’s allied play is more optimal than online. This is highly unlikely, albeit possible.

[M36]

@simon33 I don’t get me wrong, the Axis win about 2/3 of the time so it’s clear they have an advantage. We’ve just always seen that as part of the challenge.

[Kreuzfeld]

@M36 once you get to higher levels of play, that 2/3rds will become 99/100 without bid

[M36]

@Kreuzfeld we also typically play for a world domination ending, which favors the Allies. Victory city conditions are far easier for the Axis to achieve.

[crockett36]

try 4 turns of bomber purchases straight to Moscow via Scotland. Don’t think about winning with the Allies turn 10. Think about saving Moscow with those bombers and airplanes as 1942. Parity. Leveling the playing field. Think of turn 8 as completing the infrastructure of Allied victory. Think of turn 8 or 9 as the exact middle of the game. Just some ideas.

The other idea is that of humiliation. You so decimate one side that you win on that side while the other side of the map is a loss. These are the two ideas that I have come up with to cause a Copernican revolution with G40. Now I’m “young” with G40, but the young sometimes have new ideas.

[BJones]

@barnee
Thanks for the answer! , been playing 25 years just never in leagues or tourney’s so I was unfamiliar with the term.

[yanksaldaway]

So couple quick questions. The 2nd edition global bid, what does it stand at? I’ve heard anywhere from 18 to 49. What is the normal bid for experienced players having players 8 plus years? Also for the bids what does everyone like to do? I usually spend it on England UK and use it to destroy the Italians in Africa to make it easier attacking the Axis underbelly.

[yanksaldaway]

Also. what are these leagues I keep seeing mentioned? They sound intriguing.

[simon33]

@yanksaldaway said in [House Rules] Should allies receive a bid?:

Also. what are these leagues I keep seeing mentioned? They sound intriguing.

League: https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/category/29/league

The very top players can go to 40+. 20-25 was the usual bid for league games but still saw like 60% or more wins to Axis. Most people did indeed put a few more units down around Egypt/Mid East. Other bids were ftr Scotland, stacking up Yunnan (fly USSR planes there), artillery in China.

[seancb]

So, I play online at Triple A and most bid are about 15-18. The play level is pretty decent IMO. I’m no noob, but i’m not an “expert”. I’m a bit curious about what these “advanced Axis strategies” look like that would require a bid of 30+. Not trying to hijack the thread to some strategy thread, but “Should allies receive a bid?” means to me that you really need to share what you are doing with the axis so well to require it? Maybe someone can humor me and explain what they do with the axis that is so “punishing”?

[oysteilo]

@seancb when you play online on triple a a lower bid is ok. A league game is differently because you have much more time to plan and check your move. Against a good player 35 is minimum. Bur 50 is more right