Allied Strategy- London Calling

I do apologize, I didn’t watch the video as I im only able to post on my work computer.  I was speaking more generally, I suppose.

Thank you for narrating it to me.

I guess my thinking that Germany has to commit to that early Sea Lion in general (in his mind, at least) to pull it off, so there may not be much to dissuade.  If he’s setting it up, and USA looks like he’s coming straight for him with all those goodies, you make a strong point that he either has to switch plans, or blow himself up.

@GeneralHandGrenade:

This plan isn’t to actively prevent Sealion, it’s to dissuade Germany from doing it.

Well, now that the video is out GHG has shown the counter for Germany to hold SZ110 after Sea Lion and blow up the entire German fleet.

My 2 Air Base plan on SZ110 was a counter to the first question of how does Germany hold SZ110 and their ill gotten gains in the UK.

So, now we enter the realm of counters of counters.

So, the USA stacks SZ102 like GHG laid out. What can Germany do besides bailing on Sea Lion which is the entire purpose of stacking SZ102.

Well, the 2 X Air Base plan most likely is a doomed counter. Mainly because it is to passive. Germany does not need passive plans that dissuade the Allies from doing something, they need to be bold and aggressive and make it abundantly clear that the Allies have no choice but to back down.

So, here is my second stab at this discussion, in classic manner, a counter to a counter.

Germany is going in on Sea Lion on G3, that is a given.

Germany plans to counter this SZ102 grand plan.

So, instead of being passive to dissuade the USA, Germany goes right at them.

Germany moves all 4 Atlantic subs into SZ106 and obliterates the Canadian navy.
Germany blows up SZ111, mainly to get rid of one of the UK DD sitting up there. Going in with the BB and air power.
Germany ignores SZ110 fleet.
Germany is only concerned in the first 2 turns about UK DD.
Germany needs to build a DD on turn 1 to take out that pesky Russian Sub on G2.
Germany in the non combat moves the lone sub in 124 to 108.

Ok, so what has Germany done.

IF all goes to plan off the coast of Canada Germany has 4 subs and one sub in the middle of the Atlantic in range of SZ102.

SO UK now has to make some choices. Do they go standard opening move and go Taranto and ignore the subs? They do have one DD left in SZ109 who go back to Canada with some air support and blow up the Subs. But how many planes do they divert? they need all of them in the Med. So, if UK goes back to Canada to destroy the sub menace Italy keeps almost all their starting navy in tact. which is always good for the Axis.

** This is very Important to the counter ** Germany is forcing the UK to make a hard choice on UK1. Depending on their choice now Germany on G2 can make any changes to Sea Lion they want or just throw in the towel and forget about Sea lion. If the UK goes after the Subs with their planes that leaves Italy un molested in the Med which is always good for Italy navy and the German player on G2 can do a all into Russia build with land units.

You are now having the UK make the hard choices which always leads to good things.

So this is a aggressive counter move to SZ102 which then also effects what the UK will do on Turn 1. SZ102 now has up to 5 subs going into SZ102 on G3 at the latest. Heck they could go on G2 and declare war on the USA if they drop 2CV and a DD in SZ102. It will not effect Germany on a G3 invasion because the USA counter is sunk. Furthermore Germany now has subs sitting in the middle of the Atlantic that causes disruption for the UK.

So, that is my counter to the counter.

IF Germany on G1 purchases a DD and a Sub. They could have up to 6 subs in the Atlantic at the start of G3 to contest SZ102. I cant see how making the UK chase subs with 1DD in the Atlantic is a bad idea.

Well, if you put 4 subs in 106 on G1, the US can decide to move the cruiser to 102 as well, 5 subs vs 1 DD, 1 CC, 2 CV, 4 fighters may very well result in 5 subs lost against the destroyer and cruiser, leaving the carriers.

@calvinhobbesliker:

Well, if you put 4 subs in 106 on G1, the US can decide to move the cruiser to 102 as well, 5 subs vs 1 DD, 1 CC, 2 CV, 4 fighters may very well result in 5 subs lost against the destroyer and cruiser, leaving the carriers.

That is true.

But Germany could then go into Eastern USA SZ and blow up what ever TRS and fodder units they have on G3 instead.

Iam a big believer in making my foe have to make some hard choices on what to do. He has no clue what Iam doing and sometimes people way over think what you are doing when put under pressure. It is possible that the USA backs down from SZ102 in response.

Also leaving carriers fully loaded in SZ102 does have some risk. If the Subs get some good rolls they could damage all the CV and most likely all the subs die in the process.  But that also means the USA loses not only their DD and CA, in the scenario laid out but also all 4 planes. I think that would be a really nice trade off for Germany.

I agree it is unlikely that the German Subs would hit 4 out of 5 shots. But will the USA risk it? That is the whole point of a passive counter. Your foe is more concerned about it going bad and losing a ton of units and set them back 2-3 turns. That is why passive counters work.

The proper response to a passive counter is to challenge it and flip the script and make the guy setting up the passive counter to actually spring the counter move and maybe losing his shirt in the process.

@Ichabod:

I think the only reason to stage a US fleet in sz 102 (fighters) and bombers in Washington DC (to sink the German Navy) is to try to let the UK get away with not doing a standard 6 /1 UK1 purchase. Because, otherwise what’s the point of doing this SZ 102 thing?

The more I think about, the less reason I think there is for avoiding this purchase.

Later in the game, these infantry are very useful and normally need to be added to to prevent London falling shortly after Moscow, or can also be used to hit Normandy.

I guess one thing these strategies are useful for is removing fear from scrambling G1.

As a German player, to see this London calling strategy would make me giddy,this strategy is incredibly flawed….worthless in fact…people miss the point of Sea Lion which is to secure a flank, and prevent landing spots for US Bombers

Germany and Italy must play as one with same objectives in mind

@Leatherneckinlv:

As a German player, to see this London calling strategy would make me giddy,this strategy is incredibly flawed….worthless in fact…people miss the point of Sea Lion which is to secure a flank, and prevent landing spots for US Bombers

Germany and Italy must play as one with same objectives in mind

Well, I don’t think people miss the point that knocking out the UK and securing the island is key to Axis success.

I just want more insight on how the plan is flawed to the point of worthless. That is the real “meat” of your post. Back it up, lets get some insight on why it is flawed and pointless.

@Leatherneckinlv:

I have a plan for the Italians that is pretty out of the box to help secure the European flank.

In every game that fleet in 111 has been irrelevant and by the time it could become relevant it’s too late because of my secret Italian strategy.

Ok man, stop teasing me……I want to see this strategy.

:-D :-o

@PainState:

@Leatherneckinlv:

I have a plan for the Italians that is pretty out of the box to help secure the European flank.

In every game that fleet in 111 has been irrelevant and by the time it could become relevant it’s too late because of my secret Italian strategy.

Ok man, stop teasing me……I want to see this strategy.

:-D :-o

Must be hanging out with Dauvio Vann. I hope the community is worthy of learning that secret.

Taking out UK by Sea Lion has 2 points, a strategic and tactical attack. You do not by any means take out UK until turn 4. Scotland is a must. Attacking the AB and NB was senseless by the German player in the video. By turn 4 if all has gone well Germany will have a fleet and 5 Bombers…6 maybe 7 transports. turn 3 buy by Germany is 70% for Russia…
Italy will take out Morocco and Gibraltar…all of Italy’s concern is to make Sea Zone 91 a very heavy price to pay to enter. US can not and will not survive a double hit by Italy and then Germany in SZ 91
I will say this you are looking at roughly 12 Italian Subs…AB on Morocco by Italy on turn 2…another AB on Gibraltar on turn 3…Italian and German planes for scramble plus the German fleet in 110 which will have a CV, BB, CA, 2 / 3 DD and 2 to 6 SS ( the Subs truly vary as it can be as low as 2 to possible 6) 5 Bombers to strike any US approach towards Europe

Turn 5 on Italy can secure North Africa for good.

At this point Germany doesn’t have to take out Moscow. Leningrad and Stalingrad will get you 8 cities, however by this time Japan has already won the war in the Pacific.

Russia will never be a threat to Germany.

Key factors are German buys

Turn 1 a strat bomber, DD, SS and arty (30 ipc)
Turn 2 a CV, 4 APA, 1 DD, a strat bomber Arty as needed ( 68 to 73 ipc)
Turn 3 a strat bomber and rest Infantry (50 plus ipc) here you may have to purchase 1 or 2 APA if necessary
Turn 4 by Infantry Arty Mix for Russia ( 50 plus ipc)
Turn 5 A couple of ships and all tanks (77 plus closer to 82 ipc)

Italy:
Turn 1 APA (10 ipc)
Turn 2 AB and all SS (from 18 to 28 ipc)
Turn 3 AB and  all SS (33 plus IPC
turn 4 all SS (35 plus ipc)

Turn 2 Germany hopefully has 3 subs in SZ 109, a sub in SZ 106 (iffy) and an Italian fleet of some sort…least being a sub in SZ 98 to convoy the UK

The more UK buys to prevent Sea Lion, the more luxury buys Italy can make

Some variances may apply in purchases however not by much

So Yeah…go ahead and make my day

APA=Naval Transport
SS=Submarine
DD=Destroyer
CA=Cruiser
BB=Battleship
CV=Aircraft Carrier

Lovin it !

I for one haven’t had any success with a two stage sea lion strategy. UK just buys too much infantry and needing to avoid a Japanese DOW until J4 weakens the Axis.

Have you had any success with such a strategy?

Leatherneck, your strategy sounds so silly to me that I suspect you of trolling the forum. If Italy builds nothing but one transport before switching to 100% submarines and airbases, then there’s no way they’re going to get up to anywhere near 30+ IPCs of income AT ALL, let alone by turn 3. You just don’t have enough ground units. You start the game with only 22 ground units, vs. 23 Allied ground units in the territories you need to conquer (Southern France, Yugoslavia, Greece, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Alexandria, Egypt). Even if you somehow win the Mediterranean sea/air battles and keep all your transports alive without buying any destroyers or planes, you just don’t have enough troops to occupy the usual Italian sphere of influence.

Worse, the Italians go after the Americans – so America can counter-attack Germany’s fleet after a G4 London attack and before Italy even builds its last set of 5 submarines. Those extra 5 subs you want to buy with your “35 plus IPCs” on Italy’s fourth turn won’t leave the Mediterranean until after America’s fifth turn, and they won’t be able to reach the English Channel until after America’s sixth turn – so America has plenty of time to knock out the Germans and then either reinforce the Atlantic fleet or escape before Italy can do anything about it.

Ok, from what i read is that a combination of:

US gets Full use of sz 102 by placing CVs there with Ftr’s and Bmbrs as air cover and DDs to fend off any lone some German SS.

While UK is building up London.

Should do the job of scaring a German Axis player away from a SL performance.

Usually the US may not buy a CV for ATL on T1 necessarily if they don’t assume a SL.
Also Japan should not react any differently to avoid a give away of an SL by G.
And basically it doesn’ t prevent SL b/c it is still the decision off G to wheter perform a SL or not.
There are ways of trying to make a SL more unlikely but at the end it will be still G’s decision.

Not scrambling and Not sending away RAF is another way to make a SL less favourable for G.

Bids can make a SL less likely as well, to name a few.

A SL should allways overtrump the UK and catch him/her offguard.

That means for G:

110/111 and 106 seabattles should be as casualty less as possible, the IC be bombed to Stoneage and back with no Bmbr lost for G to even consider a SL.

In the end the dice will have the almost last saying.

Italy may play a role:
They could indeed grab Gib and sending Ftr’s to W.Germany to aid G.
But that is about it!

GHG….I told Siredblood the same thing, I would love to play you in a game…Siredblood has seen my Sea Lion…I am always down for a game that challenges me. I learn from my mistakes or losses…high 5

Argothair….think what you want…Troll I am to you, not offended…I don’t get offended easily…I’ll play you too…I have confidence in my strategy