How to save Italian fleet

UK does Taranto most times in our games too because they simply don’t fear Sea lion much. Alpha+3 gave the English a pretty big security blanket adding extra inf for def, and extra AAA guns taking hits pushes it even further. The Allies also know that if you spend for Sea Lion (6-10 transports) that Russia will be a monster, and the US can probably liberate London easily and trash your tranny fleet anyway.

With that said, I will still threaten Sea Lion (you need to carry it out sometimes too keep them guessing). A typical buy might be a carrier and transport G1 (and do not kill off the German battle ship) so that I have a couple transports, loaded carrier, BB, and cruiser sitting in sz 112. That will make them at least think twice about sending the bulk of the RAF to the Med. You can still use the fleet to go after Russia through the Baltic. Your improved fleet will also help you retake Norway if they get it, and make the Allies bulk up more then they want to if going north (may even delay them a turn later in the game). You of course still need to hit both English BBs in the Atlantic.

If they are doing Taranto, there are two streams of thought:

1. Scramble all 3 ftrs (2 Italian, 1 German) and try to take out as much of UK’s navy as possible, then counter attack (they will try to preserve air power most likely sacking the DD carrier and one ftr maybe more).

2. Don’t scramble any, lose the sz 97 navy (it’s gone anyway), but the UK has some choices to make if you mange to get a couple hits. The UK will probably leave the carrier loaded, and what ever ships are left (flying their remaining air to safety). They know that either Italy of Germany is going to kill it in a counter attack. The tricky thing is the defending carrier in your counter attack, if they take a hit on the carrier their planes will die (can’t land) so it can be very interesting if you don’t scramble, and plan a counter attack.

Italy’s navy gets clobbered most games, you just need to make sure that it hurts the UK. I agree that trying to take out the UK cruiser in sz 91 (Gib) helps some. We normally attack both sz91 Gib, and sz 106 Canada w/1 sub each hoping to get one or the other, but take 2 subs at 91 so that cruiser doesn’t hit you. Sending a German ftr to S Italy is a must so you have the ability to scramble 3 ftrs (1 German, 2 Italian). Just because you can doesn’t mean you should though.

Give some more territory to Italy so they can get their income up. You might try to strafe Yogo w/Germany G1 so Italy can take it It1 easily (when doing this bring one inf from Romania so all your units can leap frog to Romania in the retreat BTW). We have even seen Germany smack Paris, and back out so Italy can get the 19 IPCs to rebuild their navy (there is some risk there, but we’ve never seen the RAF land in Paris to try keeping France alive).

Anyway, good gaming IL

@ColonelCarter:

Just because you send a German fighter to S. Italy doesn’t mean you have to scramble. I find that sending the fighter has more benefit in just forcing UK to max Taranto (i.e. send the carrier) if they want to guarantee its success. If you don’t scramble, UK ends up getting left with maximum DD, CA, CV, 2 figs (if you only get one hit and they take the tac as casualty) in SZ 97 that the entire Luftwaffe can smash G2 for 2-3 planes. So you at worst end up still losing 3 planes, but Italy’s airforce is still in tact to wipe the French fleet I1 and take Greece I2, as well as the UK having to send in navy from somewhere else to deny the Clear Med NO.

That is a very interesting idea that never occurred to me. This could waste a lot of UK units and give the Italians a bit of an edge. A little rough on the Luftwaffe, those planes might be hard to replace when your building land forces for Barbarossa. Still, good to give the Italians a push.

Agreed. You must have the German Ft there. I have two.
UK has to throw in every available plane, just in case.
Then Italy can decide not scramble, as Colonel Carter said. Italy will have little or no income, because the UK fleet is off Italy, but if you realise and accept that, Germany can sink them on its G2.

@wittmann:

Agreed. You must have the German Ft there. I have two.
UK has to throw in every available plane, just in case.
Then Italy can decide not scramble, as Colonel Carter said. Italy will have little or no income, because the UK fleet is off Italy, but if you realise and accept that, Germany can sink them on its G2.

Agreed, having the ability to scramble 3 ftrs forces the UK to bring it all. Not scrambling is a great option because it sticks the entire UK Med navy in sz 97. This is a very vulnerable position for the UK to be in depending on how many hits the Luftwaffe gets, the carrier can’t take hits in the first round of the counter attack (ftrs will die if Luftwaffe pulls out).

I also noted that you were playing only the Euro side (wrong thread BTW), so this should benefit the Italians somewhat early on. In global the UK knowingly sacrifices the Med fleet, because the Indian fleet is on its way to replace it (maybe adding a ship or two from S Africa). In Europe only there is no Indian fleet coming, so the UK has to build from scratch (plus the English Atlantic fleet should be sunk). In the first couple turns (after the UK Med fleet is at the bottom) the Luftwaffe can hang around S Italy or N Africa to insure the UK can’t get more ships into the Med (Italy’s NO). I also like to take ground with Italy in N Africa, then fly in German ftrs for defense (use the turn order). You might consider saving Italy’s starting income so you can buy a carrier Ita2. This may allow you navigate the Med better depending on how much of the RAF is still in the Med.

In Europe only the US at some point will make Italy’s life difficult, not much you can do about that LOL. There are no Japanese for them to compete with.

@Imperious:

axis already have the edge.

We are playing just Europe, not Global

My bad, did not see you say Europe only.

Imperious Leader, try to stall the Royal Navy and take Malta.

G1 - send two or three Tanks def. to Southern France along with two Fighters (landing in Italy)
S. France is yours now. Clear the Gibraltae seaway with two ,three subs and stall it. (One at least needs to survive)

I 1 - purchase is one Sub. wich is going to stall the remainings of Seazone 97 battle.
Combat move should be invasion of Malta and try to knock out as many Fighters wich might have landed, supported by a Cruiser (switch Cruiser sz 95 with DD 96) and also attack the French vessels in sz 93.
No Scramble on U.K. 1 so you have better support on I 1 turn.
And either invade Gibraltae with the remaining Tranny or Reinforce Italian African forces.

any thought of giving southern france to Germany? with the minor and naval base there, germany can drop some ships in.  A axis AC in the med would be alarming to the allies.

I like Germany to capture and use Southern France for that express purpose jwo1984.

Me too. I have often dropped subs in the Med for Germany to help out the Italians and even harass the US fleet when it gets there. I have also put German transports there to help Italy clear North Africa and get that land unit into Egypt when it falls.
Never really thought of putting an aircraft carrier down there though. That could open up some interesting possibilities. Might even make the Americans wary of going to SZ 91.

Great idea for Germany to produce subs in the Med. Remember subs can move through Gibraltar without the need to control it.

I usually scramble the air force at Taranto as well, same reasoning, kill off whatever you can and Germany can always rebuild.

Currently tossing a Minor complex there next to Italy for the Germans so that both powers CAN build naval there, not sure if it’s a good strategy or not, but it’s close enough for everyone to defend and it might be able to turn the tide in the Med.

Love the idea of sending two subs to SZ 91.  Usually send 1 to SZ 106, but yea, that transport/destroyer combo isn’t the greatest odds anyway, and that cruiser is way more deadly.

Trying to figure out some way to not cripple myself but yet still sink the French navy with Germany round 1.  They become a nuisance sometimes (especially with that fighter for support.)

ShadowHAwk, I have to applaud that strafe on the Scotti fleet (will try it out next time I’m Germany). I often build a carrier for the Germans G1, then NCM the BB to sz 112 anyway, so this fits into that very well (carrier/DD build). The DD could also help track down that pesky Russian sub that convoys Norway. I rarely use the German BB on G1 because I don’t like to sacrifice it in the battle, or have it be a sitting duck off the coast of the UK damaged (so this basically lets me bake my cake, and eat it too lol). I can also see how it makes the UK think about sending everything into the Med, or should they go after this new target. Either target is costly to the UK.

IMO keeping the German BB alive seems to help later in the game, because the allies have to deal with a real naval or Sea Lion threat. That naval threat could delay them a round getting to the European coast too (need to build more boats lol). It can also make it difficult for the Allies to sink your Baltic fleet later, which is the life line for Norway. Besides, if they do send everything to the Med you can convoy the crap out out of UK for a turn, maybe two. Using the BB as a hit and run opens up a lot for the Axis IMO.

I know that the UK could attack your German fleet (sacrificing the damaged Brit BB), but if they don’t I was just wondering how successful you are in taking out the British BB on G2 (it would probably be damaged). It really only has a couple options with having only 2 moves. Sz 109 w/a pair of destroys (1 from Canada if it survives), and what ever UK builds there would be my guess (probably a couple ftrs to scramble). The German would have good odds hitting sz 109, but It won’t be cheap, and the Germans may also need to clear the Med. I could see the Luftwaffe taking quite a hit which is never good for the Germans.

@ShadowHAwk:

Actualy i give them a target 2 tempting not to attack as germany.

buy 1 AC + 1 dest.
2 subs -> gibraltar cruisers
2 subs 1 BB 1 fig 1 tact 1 strategic  vs the fleet of scotland
1 sub  All air vs the channel fleet. This is optional.
Land at least 1 fig in south italy.
Optional -> sink the france fleet with 1 fig 1 tactical 1 strategic and land them in south italy.

Target is to strafe the fleet of schotland get idealy 3-4 hits and then retreat to the SC off denmark. with 1 damaged BB.

So this gives the UK 2 options.
Attack your damaged BB and have a decent chance of sinking that fleet.
Attack Italy and leave itself wide open for Sea lion, his BB cant repair and next round it will be dead.

And even if they sink italy fleet next turn they will lose a lot of money in convoy zones the turn after.

UK might try to stack 92 and finish off the pesky subs, this depends on where the germany air is positioned and how much air germany lost in the channel.

@ShadowHAwk:

Actualy i give them a target 2 tempting not to attack as germany.

buy 1 AC + 1 dest.
2 subs -> gibraltar cruisers
2 subs 1 BB 1 fig 1 tact 1 strategic  vs the fleet of scotland
1 sub  All air vs the channel fleet. This is optional.
Land at least 1 fig in south italy.
Optional -> sink the france fleet with 1 fig 1 tactical 1 strategic and land them in south italy.

Target is to strafe the fleet of schotland get idealy 3-4 hits and then retreat to the SC off denmark. with 1 damaged BB.

So this gives the UK 2 options.
Attack your damaged BB and have a decent chance of sinking that fleet.
Attack Italy and leave itself wide open for Sea lion, his BB cant repair and next round it will be dead.

And even if they sink italy fleet next turn they will lose a lot of money in convoy zones the turn after.

Even though it is optional, it looks like GE should not attack SZ110:
If UK scrambles, GE looses 6air, to the UK only 3 (remember, the scramblers cannot hit submarines). Isn’t this a killing blow for any subsequent Sea Lion/Barbarossa?
But not attacking 110 leaves an undamaged BB+2CA in the channel. Combined with the (likely) damaged BB from SZ111, doesn’t this also provide the UK with an excellent deterrent against Sea Lion?
Even with GE 2SUB + 3FTR + 3TAC versus UK BB + 2CA + 3FTR, the projection of survivors is 1 German aircraft. So 5 German air lost to 3 brits.

I still think the best way to get the brits into their most cautious mode, is GE buying nothing GE1. If the Uk gets agressive, GE2 can produce a deadly force for SL GE3. Even Barbarossa is still a very good option.

How does this work with Low Luck?  Does TripleA group the planes and ships separately for low luck?

In terms of Low luck, the presence of a dd on defense makes all the difference.

Without a DD, sub hits and air hits must b rolled separately, and so it can mess up the LL rolls.

In LL the scram against 110 is really strong, as u can choose to take hits against the UK boats but G cannot take air hits against subs.

I guess you could send 2 subs, battleship, 3 fighters, 3 t-bombers to 110 and 2 subs 1 fighter, 1 t-bomber and 2 s-bombers to 111. Your more likely to lose 1-2 planes in 111 but you should be safe from losing planes in 110 unless all the fighters hit.

Exactly my point.
Though it hurts, the BB is required for attacking 110 to prevent a catastrophe for the Germans.

I have yet to meet the Brit who is willing to take the risk of scrambling 110 if Germany attacks it with 2subs 1BB 3FTR 3TAC (projected hits inflicted: 4, but 5 may be the best to acknowledge).

Of course, this is all LL-talk. If you are playing with the dice and your opponent is a gambler, he/she might scramble anyway and loose the game right there. Or win it, if the dice seem to hate you (http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32089.0)…

If you know your opponent won’t scramble, consider building an AB in Holland instead of the CV. With that base, Germany can has 1sub 1CA 1BB 3FTR and a TRS in the channel 8-).