• '17

    @Gargantua:

    And if you want to make an argument that the flag was somehow “hijacked” one can easily say the same for the confederate battle flag.

    Except that they failed to hijack the US flag because almost no Americans view the US flag as a symbol of hate.

    The Confederate flag was much more successfully hijacked because the country which gave birth to it no longer exists.

  • '17

    @Linkon:

    I would not like to tell these future grandchildren that my generation allowed a bunch of communist to chaotically divide yet another country as they took over.  That would be a sorry excuse for them not growing up here in the USA.

    Can you explain what these comments have to do with the Confederate flag?

  • '17 '16 '15

    Here’s how Lynyrd Skynyrd views the confederate flag:

    http://radio.com/2015/06/26/lynyrd-skynryd-confederate-flag-drive-by-truckers/


  • @Linkon:

    I do hope that my future grandchildren get to grow up in the same great country I did.

    These future grandchildren may have to grow up singing some national anthem that I do not yet know…

    I would not like to tell these future grandchildren that my generation allowed a bunch of communist to chaotically divide yet another country as they took over.  That would be a sorry excuse for them not growing up here in the USA.

    BTW,
    I sense very little love and a lot of finger pointing in the above posts.
    The communists are very good at getting other peoples fingers pointed at each other’s throats.

    I don’t think the word “communist” means what you think it means.


  • The American flag should be flown on all Capitals and anything that has to do with the government. That is the nations flag period.

    But if you want to fly the confederate flag in your yard, car,  truck or on your back so be it.
    Sometimes when I see that flag it reminds me of the south and we are not together as a country.
    I understand that most people who fly it are representing the South.

    Also the hate groups are the ones that are wrecking the symbol of the confederate flag for the south.

    Everything is slowly being taken away from you by the Government. They want complete control now. Thats why the government lets the people riot ( because we owe them and relieves tension while they destroy businesses, BS )  so they can bring in there own police force and control it.

    When a cop is spit at or something is thrown at them, that is an assault on an cop.
    If I was in charge, I would of arrested everybody. No call for that BS.  IMO

  • '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 '12

    I think we may see SC Gamecocks football players boycott games until that particular flag flying over the capitol building is removed. That should lead to other schools refusing to play at SC or even not allowing SC to play at visiting schools, just a prediction.

    Of course, with the NCAA, cash is king so this would have to be a movement from the players…we’ll see.

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    @Gargantua:

    From a foriegn perspective and observation whilst this unfolds - I think all the talk of taking down the Confederate flag, or taking down the American flag, or the Jefferson memorial for that matter, are inherently anti/un America talks.

    And generally I perceive America as a huge world positive voice of reason, and not the tyranny that some would paint it as.

    As for the confederate flag specifically - to me it is a symbol of the right to respectfully disagree, and have an independent point of view, (Right or wrong) and in it’s very own way, The confederate flag is a symbol of what it is to be American.

    I agree G. And that has been my point with whatever I have said in my posts. Freedom of expression is absolutely fundamental to the existence of this country as we know it; without it we morph into a fascist distortion of “freedom”.

    @wheatbeer:

    Except that they failed to hijack the US flag because almost no Americans view the US flag as a symbol of hate.

    The Confederate flag was much more successfully hijacked because the country which gave birth to it no longer exists.

    There are a great many American citizens who view the US flag as a symbol of hate, injustice or oppression. That is why they burn it, trample it and call for its removal. As someone said before, Louis Farrakhan has already made ovations about the US flag being a hate symbol. He is just one example.

    And why should this discussion be relegated only to what Americans think? A great many more people around the world, as Gargantua insinuated, view the United States and our flag as a symbol of hate, aggression, manipulation, oppression or evil. Naturally, I believe none of those are true to the degree that many people think they are. Of course the United States has made significant mistakes and had some very dark times as a country, but our past does not mean that is who we still are today or will be in the future. On a whole, the United States is pretty darn great. Am I biased? Sure. But I am not afraid of being blown up by an IED on my way to work or being physically persecuted for practicing my religion or saying something controversial. I think that counts for a lot.

    The problem goes back to that First Amendment discussion. What is happening with the Confederate Flag is just the latest in a line of social censorship stemming from both political correctness (endorsed by the government) and cries of injustice (from a given minority). I don’t know how to describe it any other way. It has come to a particular head in the last 15 years with the advent of social media. There is now a constant, instant, nation-wide forum for the loudest people to spread their opinions. This is a great tool for the smaller groups to have their voice heard, but when it is used to oppress and censor and exact some level of retribution, it becomes very un-American. In this instance, the American public is oppressed by this nebulous specter of public opinion and political correctness. Much, if not all, of it is borne out of emotion rather than logic, which is where we will fail as a society and a government.

    But that also goes back to my tongue-in-cheek comment about me being a white, male, middle-class, Christian. And I may add, heterosexual.  My voice has been fairly eroded by the social scene since I am not a member of any minority or oppressed group. I have no bones to pick and therefore cannot be legitimate. At least that is the way it feels at times. I hope that is not viewed as a political statement, because it is really a social one.

  • '17

    Freedom of speech is a right I cherish it no less than any other other American.

    Perhaps I am being misinterpreted here. I do not advocate banning the Confederate flag. People have the right to fly any flag they want (no matter what it symbolizes to themselves or others).

    The only issue I am addressing is whether or not the Confederate flag should be hoisted on state property. If the Confederate flag is to be shown by the state, then it belongs in a display case not on a pole.

  • '17

    I had a chance to see some pieces of U-85 on display at the Graveyard of the Atlantic Museum in Hatteras, NC while on vacation last month (I encourage you guys to take a look if you’re ever in the area).

    28 of the German sailors who died when U-85 sank are buried at Hampton National Cemetery in Virginia.
    http://www.cem.va.gov/cems/nchp/hampton.asp

    Do you think it would be appropriate if the State of Virginia decided to fly one of the Third Reich’s swastika flags beside their graves? Would public opinion matter then?

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    @wheatbeer:

    Freedom of speech is a right I cherish it no less than any other other American.

    Perhaps I am being misinterpreted here. I do not advocate banning the Confederate flag. People have the right to fly any flag they want (no matter what it symbolizes to themselves or others).

    No, I do understand and I thought we actually agreed. I have just been arguing your points because we have nothing better to do around here. And because I thought there were things that needed to be fleshed out in the discussion.

    @wheatbeer:

    The only issue I am addressing is whether or not the Confederate flag should be hoisted on state property. If the Confederate flag is to be shown by the state, then it belongs in a display case not on a pole.

    Agreed.

    @wheatbeer:

    I had a chance to see some pieces of U-85 on display at the Graveyard of the Atlantic Museum in Hatteras, NC while on vacation last month (I encourage you guys to take a look if you’re ever in the area).

    28 of the German sailors who died when U-85 sank are buried at Hampton National Cemetery in Virginia.
    http://www.cem.va.gov/cems/nchp/hampton.asp

    Do you think it would be appropriate if the State of Virginia decided to fly one of the Third Reich’s swastika flags beside their graves? Would public opinion matter then?

    Public opinion always matters… to what degree is based on the issue or how vocal people care to be.

    As for this hypothetical: it is not a perfect analogy to what we have with the Confederate flag argument. First, as someone wrote earlier, the Confederate battle flag is technically a US war veteran flag. If that is the case, there are venues where I think it would be appropriate for the government to fly it. This would be done in a commemorative or memorial fashion at a cemetery or battle site rather than over a state capitol or just arbitrarily on state property.

    I believe similar measures could be taken with these deceased German sailors. I would not suggest putting up a Kriegsmarine ensign, but a BRD flag or Deutsche Marine ensign would be perfectly fine and appropriate. There would be a massive outcry from the public if swastikas were erected at the graves. But it is not solely because of public opinion that National Socialist flags should not be flown. First of all, that government no longer exists. Secondly, even though it was made the national flag of Germany at that point, the Nazi flag by its very nature is a political party flag, not a national one. Third, historical flags (those no longer used by said government) are not usually flown in an official capacity. For example, the US flag that flies over the Allied cemetery at Normandy today is the current 50 star flag, not the 48 star that was used at the time. (There are 48 star flags on display, but that is different.) And fourth, as I often like to point out, not all German military men or civilians were Nazis. They may have lived and served under that government, but that did not make them card carrying National Socialists.


  • Like everyone has stated i agree that all flags and symbols should be banned because they are insidious icons of hate. Especially christian symbols, the Apple logo, HP logo, and the French flag.

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    We should just ban all symbols for what they may imply.

    https://youtu.be/9J6J5BcHFCs?t=46

    Including that guy.

    He makes me uncomfortable.

  • '12

    @Young:

    I wouldn’t touch this flag topic with a 10’ pole :-P

    yeah watch out the PC police are everywhere.

  • '17

    It’s possible that none of those 28 German sailors were National Socialists. How they felt about the Kriegsmarine flag, besides being unknowable, is irrelevant to my argument. Nothing changes the historical reality of their flag.

    There is a legal distinction between veterans of the Confederacy and veterans of Germany, but there is no legal distinction between the Confederate battle flag and the Kriegsmarine flag.

  • Sponsor '17 '13 '11 '10

    @wheatbeer:

    I had a chance to see some pieces of U-85 on display at the Graveyard of the Atlantic Museum in Hatteras, NC while on vacation last month (I encourage you guys to take a look if you’re ever in the area).

    28 of the German sailors who died when U-85 sank are buried at Hampton National Cemetery in Virginia.
    http://www.cem.va.gov/cems/nchp/hampton.asp

    Do you think it would be appropriate if the State of Virginia decided to fly one of the Third Reich’s swastika flags beside their graves? Would public opinion matter then?

    Good Point!

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    @wheatbeer:

    It’s possible that none of those 28 German sailors were National Socialists. How they felt about the Kriegsmarine flag, besides being unknowable, is irrelevant to my argument. Nothing changes the historical reality of their flag.

    Okayyy… what exactly is your argument then? You addressed one of my four points (the weakest one) and ignored the rest. I know you are not for censoring/banning the Confederate battle flag, but what is your stance on this German sub-crew? Which, from what I can tell is a purely hypothetical situation. I have already given my opinion… one which seems to have been shared by the evidence of this photo:


    http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-85.htm

    @wheatbeer:

    There is a legal distinction between veterans of the Confederacy and veterans of Germany, but there is no legal distinction between the Confederate battle flag and the Kriegsmarine flag.

    What exactly do you mean by “legal distinction”? Constitutional protections? Government endorsements? I do not follow.

  • '17

    @LHoffman:

    Okayyy… what exactly is your argument then? You addressed one of my four points (the weakest one) and ignored the rest.

    My argument is that flying the Kriegsmarine flag as a memorial is logically and (more to the point) legally the same as flying the Confederate battle flag as a memorial. The only differences lie in the realm of public opinion.

    Since you asked, I will address your arguments point by point.

    @LHoffman:

    First, as someone wrote earlier, the Confederate battle flag is technically a US war veteran flag.

    That Confederate soldiers are recognized as US war veterans gives those veterans a specific legal status (they are entitled to the same benefits as any other American veteran). Since all Confederate soldiers are now deceased, the main practical benefit they can enjoy is their eligibility to be buried in military cemeteries. In the eyes of the law, human beings can be veterans but flags cannot.

    @LHoffman:

    Secondly, even though it was made the national flag of Germany at that point, the Nazi flag by its very nature is a political party flag, not a national one.

    The ultimate design-origin of swastika bearing flags does not change the fact those were the official flags of the era.

    @LHoffman:

    Third, historical flags (those no longer used by said government) are not usually flown in an official capacity.

    Both the Kriegsmarine and Confederate flags are historical. This point only supports my argument of their logical/legal sameness.

    @LHoffman:

    And fourth, as I often like to point out, not all German military men or civilians were Nazis.

    As I stated before, this is not relevant to my argument.

    @LHoffman:

    What exactly do you mean by “legal distinction”?

    I mean that in the eyes of the law at present, the Confederate flag and the Kriegsmarine flag aren’t any different. There is nothing which you can legally do with a Confederate flag which you can’t legally do with a Kriegsmarine flag.


  • What Kriegsmarine Flag you talking about??
    I don’t see any.

  • '17

    You don’t see any Kriegsmarine flag in LHoffman’s photo because this line of argument comes from a hypothetical question from post #39 of this thread. It was also quoted by coachofmany in the post immediately preceding LHoffman’s photo.


  • Nearly added my two cents worth a couple of times, but been held back by whether a Brit should involve himself in America’s angst.

    Nevertheless here goes ….

    The deeper question is the rift in your great nation and how it might be healed. The fate of a flag seems much less important, no matter how loved or hated it is. If banning the flag meant a better future for the US then many would presumably accept that unwelcome step.

    But banning the flag merely for the sake of banning the flag offers no such hope. It just becomes another casualty along the path of political correctness. In any case reclaiming the flag through positive action to associate it with messages of equality and brotherhood would be so much healing than a ban could ever be. But that would take a great deal of effort and political willpower.

    Let’s keep the flag, reclaim it for a different message and have a cogent plan for brotherhood and equality with mass support from all races and creeds.

    I am touring New England in the fall with some close American friends - no doubt we will discuss all this at length then.

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