[Global 1940] Changing AA in the game

[shadowhawk]

Currently AA guns are really sort of a luck gimick.
If the defender is lucky its a huge deal but its a rare occasion. This makes them underused and i dont think i ever saw them being bought in any game so far.

So maby we should change these guns to be more usefull but less impactfull at the same time.

So how about changing them from 3 shots pre combat to 1 shot every round targetting planes.

So it moves to defender shoot step, so even hit planes still get to attack.
It does still only hit planes.
Only 1 die on a 1.

Would this make a unit you would buy or would it become to overpowered as a unit.

[General 6 Stars]

We use AAA Guns For defense also in battles.
So if planes attacking get your normal AAA Gun shot at them.
Then on second round of combat they defend @2 in ground battles. We use the AAA Gun as a artillery piece.
If no planes attacking, then the AAA gun gets to defend @2 in the first round and beyond.

Can take as a casualty. Great piece on islands.

Other option is to add more AAA Guns to setup or make them cheaper.

WE have it were theirs plenty of them on setup. You still need to move them.

[baron Münchhausen]

@shadowhawk

I read somewhere that the reason why it was 3 preemptive roll @1 is because other land units defend @2. So, rolling each round contrive the owner to keep a lesser roll @1/6 and to take casualty on @2/6 which is a hard choice involving risk on losing a better odds in hope of a more harmful hit on a costlier unit.

By rolling at the outskirt of battle, you already know if this AAA unit got a hit or not. This smooth the order of losses while choosing casualty.

Up to 3 rolls is another way to tell that this AAA unit was able to remain on board 3 rounds before being taken as a probable losses.
Not bad considering it is a 1/6 odds unit.
In many battle, third round can be poking hole into Artillery/MI or Tank stack.

[baron Münchhausen]

@General-6-Stars

Another way to keep 5 IPCs AAA interesting is to make it a 2 hits unit, which could be repaired on next purchase phase.

Up to 3 preemptive rolls @1, then can soak 1 hit before being destroyed. No roll during regular battle.

Someway to figure strongholds and somekind of defensive fortifications.

Buying them is still a niche units for specific defensive situation but cannot buy only such.

[General 6 Stars]

@baron-Münchhausen said in [Global 1940] Changing AA in the game:

@General-6-Stars

Another way to keep 5 IPCs AAA interesting is to make it a 2 hits unit, which could be repaired on next purchase phase.

Up to 3 preemptive rolls @1, then can soak 1 hit before being destroyed. No roll during regular battle.

Someway to figure strongholds and somekind of defensive fortifications.

Buying them is still a niche units for specific defensive situation but cannot buy only such.

Cost to low for a 2 hit unit. Be used as a fortification.

[barnee]

I changed them from 3 shots at 1 to 2 shots but defend at 1 in regular combat cost 4

Lowering the number of shots reduces the variabiity. I found it to work well with more AA Guns being bought.

Edit
Another option would be to retain the 3 shots but only 1 counts. Sadly, triplea can’t do that, which is the only way for me to play

[baron Münchhausen]

@General-6-Stars said in [Global 1940] Changing AA in the game:

@baron-Münchhausen said in [Global 1940] Changing AA in the game:

@General-6-Stars

Another way to keep 5 IPCs AAA interesting is to make it a 2 hits unit, which could be repaired on next purchase phase.

Up to 3 preemptive rolls @1, then can soak 1 hit before being destroyed. No roll during regular battle.

Someway to figure strongholds and somekind of defensive fortifications.

Buying them is still a niche units for specific defensive situation but cannot buy only such.

Cost to low for a 2 hit unit. Be used as a fortification.

Hi General,
Can you develop a little more, please ?

In many occurrence, unless a very large stack of units in Capitol Victory city, when on defense with AA guns, they might be destroyed in many battles due to overwhelming attacking units. In addition, beside the opening rolls, it is only value as hit soaker while an Inf or Arty still roll @2.
5 IPCs for 2 hits, is 2.5/ hit but AA gun has no mobility Combat move and cannot be use on offense, to the contrary of standard units.

I don’t see how it can drag down so much a game to make it an all purchase favorite to turtle up. 2x 5 IPCs can provide a Fighter and is much more interesting in many aspect.

Maybe it can be interesting to compare all cases on a 30 IPCs basis:
1- 10 infantry (A10 D20, 10 hits)
2- 6 AA guns (A0 D1* vs up to 18*, 12 hits)
3- 3 Fighters (A9 D12, 3 hits)

4- 5 Inf, 3 AA (11 hits)
5- 5 Inf, 1 AA, 1 Fg (8 hits)

[General 6 Stars]

@baron-Münchhausen said in [Global 1940] Changing AA in the game:

@General-6-Stars said in [Global 1940] Changing AA in the game:

@baron-Münchhausen said in [Global 1940] Changing AA in the game:

@General-6-Stars

Another way to keep 5 IPCs AAA interesting is to make it a 2 hits unit, which could be repaired on next purchase phase.

Up to 3 preemptive rolls @1, then can soak 1 hit before being destroyed. No roll during regular battle.

Someway to figure strongholds and somekind of defensive fortifications.

Buying them is still a niche units for specific defensive situation but cannot buy only such.

Cost to low for a 2 hit unit. Be used as a fortification.

Hi General,
Can you develop a little more, please ?

In many occurrence, unless a very large stack of units in Capitol Victory city, when on defense with AA guns, they might be destroyed in many battles due to overwhelming attacking units. In addition, beside the opening rolls, it is only value as hit soaker while an Inf or Arty still roll @2.
5 IPCs for 2 hits, is 2.5/ hit but AA gun has no mobility Combat move and cannot be use on offense, to the contrary of standard units.

I don’t see how it can drag down so much a game to make it an all purchase favorite to turtle up. 2x 5 IPCs can provide a Fighter and is much more interesting in many aspect.

Maybe it can be interesting to compare all cases :
1- 10 infantry (A10 D20, 10 hits)
2- 6 AA guns (A0 D1* vs up to 18*, 12 hits)
3- 3 Fighters (A9 D12, 3 hits)

4- 5 Inf, 3 AA (11 hits)
5- 5 Inf, 1 AA, 1 Fg (8 hits)

SO if you have 5 AAA Guns in Moscow. Can shoot at 15 planes in this so called G40 game etc etc.
But if you only use 3 guns then the other 2 AAA Guns get a Defense shot @2. You can make it they all get a defense shot too if each AAA Gun can only hit 3 planes.
many ways to play it.

[Faramir]

Cost 3
Attack 1
Defense 1
Gets 1 shot vs air at 1.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Faramir said in [Global 1940] Changing AA in the game:

Cost 3
Attack 1
Defense 1
Gets 1 shot vs air at 1.

Do you mean 1 AA shot both for offense and defense? Or just as usual AAgun on defense only?

[Imperious Leader]

@baron-Münchhausen Yes he has a good idea. Think German flak 88 artillery. it hits planes or land on both attack or defense. All nations had some form of flak artillery. Not sure about Japan

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@Imperious-Leader

These two weapons were used in anti-tank roles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_98_20_mm_AA_machine_cannon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_88_75_mm_AA_gun

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@shadowhawk

Simplest step would be to simply decrease its cost to 1-2 IPCs. Make it a “super fodder” unit.

To be historically accurate:

When defending, the participate in special combat like the out of box version, but they each shoot 1 shot that hits at 2 or 3 (haven’t decided). Have this happen every turn.

When there are no air units, it participates in regular combat and hits at 2 or 3.

Lower the cost to 4 or 3 IPCs.

I’m fine with it not being able to attack. Anti-aircraft guns that the unit represents are the super heavy and large types that can’t move easily (i.e not the mobile, field anti-aircraft weapons but the large complexes that defend cities). Ground units that are attacking being able to destroy air units represent the field anti-aircraft weapons.

[shadowhawk]

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in [Global 1940] Changing AA in the game:

@shadowhawk

Simplest step would be to simply decrease its cost to 1-2 IPCs. Make it a “super fodder” unit.

To be historically accurate:

When defending, the participate in special combat like the out of box version, but they each shoot 1 shot that hits at 2 or 3 (haven’t decided). Have this happen every turn.

When there are no air units, it participates in regular combat and hits at 2 or 3.

Lower the cost to 4 or 3 IPCs.

I’m fine with it not being able to attack. Anti-aircraft guns that the unit represents are the super heavy and large types that can’t move easily (i.e not the mobile, field anti-aircraft weapons but the large complexes that defend cities). Ground units that are attacking being able to destroy air units represent the field anti-aircraft weapons.

Large complexes are already handled differently, these are the special mobile AA divisions. Although mobile is a relative term. Like the Flak 88, yes it can be moved but takes time to setup and stuff.
Most divisions also had some smaller caliber AA guns that could shoot down planes but not that well.
Its like the arty from the game, every infantry division did have its own small caliber arty guns. But the unit represents the bigger concentration of heavier guns.

But currenty they can cause whole games to chance due to luck, which i dont like.
Imagine attacking moscow with germany, normally you got your airforce there to help out. Now you have to do it without your airforce because the defender rolled all 1s on defence. Or just losing like half your airforce. It changes the odds drastic. It chances the game because suddenly you lose @moscow and germany cannot win anymore. Just because of 1 lucky roll of the dice.

It would be better if they didnt shoot pre-combat but during the defence step but every round, but still targetting only air. That would make chosing them as casualties also somewhat interesting.
Or maby give them 1 pre-combat shot each round.
This makes them stronger and weaker at the same time. They are still good, they still hit planes only but they shoot only @1, but every round.
Now they are a shoot and destroy unit, Free extra hps basically.

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@shadowhawk said in [Global 1940] Changing AA in the game:

Large complexes are already handled differently, these are the special mobile AA divisions. Although mobile is a relative term. Like the Flak 88, yes it can be moved but takes time to setup and stuff.
Most divisions also had some smaller caliber AA guns that could shoot down planes but not that well.

That is what I meant, sorry if I didn’t make that clear.

Its like the arty from the game, every infantry division did have its own small caliber arty guns. But the unit represents the bigger concentration of heavier guns.

I agree.

But currenty they can cause whole games to chance due to luck, which i dont like.
Imagine attacking moscow with germany, normally you got your airforce there to help out. Now you have to do it without your airforce because the defender rolled all 1s on defence. Or just losing like half your airforce. It changes the odds drastic. It chances the game because suddenly you lose @moscow and germany cannot win anymore. Just because of 1 lucky roll of the dice.

House rule it how you’ll like, but it’s not a big concern because I use low luck.

It would be better if they didnt shoot pre-combat but during the defence step but every round, but still targetting only air. That would make chosing them as casualties also somewhat interesting.

I still want them to have a special combat to prevent confusion. Instead, how about we move that special combat to after the “defenders take casualties” but before the “defenders fire” part of the combat round?

Or maby give them 1 pre-combat shot each round.

Agreed. As said above, make them hit at 2 or 3. That would give it increased utility (it really needs it for a unit that’s more expensive than infantry and yet cannot attack).

This makes them stronger and weaker at the same time. They are still good, they still hit planes only but they shoot only @1, but every round.

Again, make it 2 or 3. Otherwise I agree.

Now they are a shoot and destroy unit, Free extra hps basically.

Please clarify. It seems your plan would give them the same amount of hit points.

[shadowhawk]

@SuperbattleshipYamato

Well atm they are free hps. After the pre-combat shots they dont do anything in the fight except take a hit. So as a defender unless its clear im winning the first hits go to the AA, they are dead weight at this point.

When they can return fire every round against planes ( might want to keep the @1 because they target units ) then it might give the defender a reasonable choice.
Do i keep an inf that shoots @2 but is going to hit infantry first.
Do i keep an AA gun that shoots @1 but attacks the planes.
The targetting thing can keep their price at 5 because its a pretty strong ability. Maby make it so that if there are no planes it attacks armor ( like the real works flak88 did )

IMO they represent flak88 batteries, a bit more specialised AA guns then the divisional version but a lot weaker then the static stuff that defends ports/airfields and the likes.

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@shadowhawk said in [Global 1940] Changing AA in the game:

Well atm they are free hps. After the pre-combat shots they dont do anything in the fight except take a hit. So as a defender unless its clear im winning the first hits go to the AA, they are dead weight at this point.

When they can return fire every round against planes ( might want to keep the @1 because they target units ) then it might give the defender a reasonable choice.

I agree. I thought when you said that you were referring to the version with your house rules, not the out of box version.

IMO they represent flak88 batteries, a bit more specialised AA guns then the divisional version but a lot weaker then the static stuff that defends ports/airfields and the likes.

Agreed.