Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB

[AndrewAAGamer]

Agreed! We want as many people who are interested in being the World to comment on the Bid. Once the Bid is agreed on then I will comment on it. Nothing from me now though. :)

[farmboy]

I like Oysteilo’s choices except I would hesitate on the sub in 110, the inf in Yunnan, and the transport in 71.

Yunnan increases the chances for a Yunnan disaster for Japan, but Japan is almost always going to go for it and the most likely outcome is just China losing one more inf.

The transport is probably only useful if you are fairly sure you are going to hit the Italians first in Ethiopia. But I think they often have other priorities that would demand the other units needed.I suppose it can go to Persia to allow the India transport to go to the islands, but I think the islands are often a mistake on UK1.

The sub in 110 is useful because the naval base gives it range but it doesn’t add much to the defense since the German attack there is mostly air and because that is the one spot the Germans are definitely going to hit. 106 may be more useful for defense since it likely blocks that attack or forces the Germans to send 3 subs (in which case the sub can submerge and join the counter)

UK Europe is almost always the best bet for the bulk of the bid since that is the one ally that is certain to be at war in round 1, (so I agree with Oysteilo’s emphasis on that) but I might still consider adding to the pacific. More UK inf in the pacific, or a second ANZAC sub, or Art for China.

Also, the sub in 91 is for me a must, as it discourages an attack on that cruiser (which is an option for Germany if they ignore 111 or 106) and it threatens everywhere the German navy ends up plus the Italian destroyer in 96.

But I haven’t really played much OOB for a while (and never had a chance to play with a 50 bid) so I might be misjudging and identifying things that are more appropriate for BM.

[trulpen]

Thank you for your input, @farmboy! It adds some nuiscances to the choice.

I think I will wait a while before putting together my thoughts and suggestion of a bid. Then wait a bit more for critique, to finally settle it with a decision and then Andrew may comment.

[majikforce]

@trulpen
British
Scotland: 1 fighter – I would definitely do this
Sz 110, 91 and 98: 1 sub each --I would maybe add a sub or dd to 106 instead of 110
sz 71: 1 transport --Could be useful depending on what UK wants to do UK1
Egypt: 1 infantry --I would only do ground troops a mech or tank here if you were committing to Tobruk UK1 and then you would want to add in Alexandria as well

China
Yunnan: 1 inf --Seems like it would make it tougher for Japan but in the end you probably lose the inf anyway.

Anzac
sz 62: 1 sub --Interesting to help thwart a J1 could be useful.
New Guinea: 1 inf-- I don’t allow this bid placement due to the league rules. Plus it is attached to NO and doesn’t seem very fair.

I agree that most of the bid should go to the UK on the Europe side. It has the most impact there and can change the landscape of a mostly scripted G1. Anything to help throw off G1.
The thought should be to get the most bang for your buck. That means being able to use the units when it comes your turn. So keep the bid units safe, maybe 106 is the exception. I have been messing around with a fighter or tac in malta and a strat in egypt. Assuming Tarnato is on the table UK1. It may help keep London with fighters for a possible sea lion and still be able to overcome the possible scramble in 97. Plus you don’t have to leave the carrier in 97 to get cleaned up by the Luftwaffe. Just my thoughts. This seems like a really cool and refreshing idea. Hope it goes well. Can’t wait to follow along!

[surfer]

Hey this sounds like fun, so I’ll send in my $0.02–might be worth that much…
IMHO, the primary purpose of the bid is to protect Allied units that are initially placed precariously. – prototypical example British Fleet. And to reduce the German Luftwaffe so that the Battle of Moscow can’t happen G5-6 timeframe.

So ftr in scotland and something in SZ110 because we can’t usefully add another ftr. @oysteilo added a sub, but for 2 more IPCs I’d upgrade to a DD-especially since there was some debate what to do with them anyway. The Germans can still “win” both battles, but the vaunted Luftwaffe will lose more planes than the Brits. Planes that won’t help in the Battle of Moscow. So 18 IPCs spent.

I really like the @oysteilo 's choice of 2 subs in SZ 91 and 98 for all the reasons given (+12 IPCs = 30 so far)

The remaining bid points have more pro’s and cons. For me the debate is Middle East and Yunnan. I’m a real fan of the Middle Earth strategy and so additional units in and around Egypt prevents the Italians from growing and makes developing Iraq and Persia easier. That said I think the transport in SZ71 is excellent purchase. The shuttle of troops from S. Africa along with an artillery in Anglo-Egyptian Sudan allow a quick takedown of Ethiopia to further reduce the Italians. The transport will then support further shucks of troops from S. Africa, keeping Egypt secure. +11 IPC = 41

Now I have 9 IPCs left. In the OOB game, Yunnan is huge with +6 IPC bonus. However, it can’t be held against determined Japanese aggression. That doesn’t matter. By placing one more inf there as @oysteilo says, it reduces the likelihood of a J1 DOW. The bombers are used against Yunnan and not the Brit BB, Phillippines SZ, Pearl Harbor, or whatever on J1.

The J1 DD attack on SZ62 is probably my most hated move in the game–similar to the German attack with single sub on SZ106, but here seems more debilitating. Total coin flip–actually 40-60 against because the prize is the transport. If the Japanese pull it off, they delay ANZAC development. A draw is useless. For that reason I might agree with @oysteilo. Alternatively, the remaining 6 IPCs could be split between Egypt and India–or even Russia for that matter. But that would be just putting a pieces on the board without much purpose. I guess I would go with the sub placement, but not firm.

[trulpen]

Great with the input you are giving!

I’m going to present a preliminary bid this evening and make it final on Wednesday. In between further input is welcomed. There’s still time to chip in folks.

When playing I think that our side should have a 3-day-tempo for moves, atleast for US and UK (maybe also for Russia and ANZAC/France, but doesn’t seem as necessary). Allowing people to chime in.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@majikforce said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

New Guinea: 1 inf-- I don’t allow this bid placement due to the league rules. Plus it is attached to NO and doesn’t seem very fair.

The $50 Bid is based on League Rules as there was no mention of any changes when we set up the Bid. I did say if the World wants to lower it to $45 I would be okay with allowing a New Guinea placement. Still a good deal for the Allies if they want that infantry in New Guinea.

[trulpen]

Lets go strict rules. No Guinea Pig.

[surfer]

Agree with @trulpen, No Guinea. The point is to teach everyone to be better within the rules.

[trulpen]

Plenty of good ideas here. :)

Here comes some thoughts and the preliminary bid suggestion. This is still up for debate, since some choices might be a bit fishy. I really like subs and figs though. :grinning:

sub 62
sub 91
sub 98
sub 106
sub 110
fig Scotland
fig Malta

I like the idea of bolstering the chinese with an inf/art or two, but in OOB when there’s no guerilla, I’d say it’s a bit of a waste. China will be run over like a trolley by a train. The sub in z62 is a beauty though. Very much dissuades that atleast that attack. I considered putting something in z37, but just don’t think it’s worth it since there are better options.

With a lot of UK fleet in the Atlantic being able to significantly control the ocean and specifically z91 and z110, US can invest a bit in transports, but may focus more heartily on the Pacific in order to try to subdue a pesky, growing Japan. US should try to avoid building war ships in the Atlantic, if possible. If JDOW1 goes down under these circumstances, I believe it should be welcomed. I may very well underestimate the strength of that opening though being no expert.

I considered bolstering UK with land units in Africa, but simply make priority of fleet. Subs are cheap and really good in these positions. Regarding z106 and z110 I don’t want to choose between them, but rather have both. The beauty of a sub in z110 instead of a des, is that if Germany attacks, there’s more risk of costly causalties, since eventual scrambled air won’t hit any subs, and also if there’s a lot of over-force, the sub may simply be saved by submerge. With the fig in Scotland, hitting both z110 and z111 should be more or less undoable.

The Scotland fig is the top priority in the bid, so I don’t believe that one is really under scrutiny. The fig in Malta though I believe is rather debatable. The idea is to make a cheap taranto possible. UK should be able to save both the ac and cr while still have killer odds.

I don’t worry at all about an early Sea Lion. I can even taunt it, hoping Germany takes the bait. I believe that’s one of the biggest mistakes Germany can do in the early game. Especially in OOB when Russia may get extra strong from territories in ME and Africa. Germany can simply not afford to ignore Russia. That’s my firm belief, but, yes, I have been wrong before. ;)

[majikforce]

@trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

Plenty of good ideas here. :)

Here comes some thoughts and the preliminary bid suggestion. This is still up for debate, since some choices might be a bit fishy. I really like subs and figs though. :grinning:

sub 62
sub 91
sub 98
sub 106
sub 110
fig Scotland
fig Malta

I like the idea of bolstering the chinese with an inf/art or two, but in OOB when there’s no guerilla, I’d say it’s a bit of a waste. China will be run over like a trolley by a train. The sub in z62 is a beauty though. Very much dissuades that atleast that attack. I considered putting something in z37, but just don’t think it’s worth it since there are better options.

With a lot of UK fleet in the Atlantic being able to significantly control the ocean and specifically z91 and z110, US can invest a bit in transports, but may focus more heartily on the Pacific in order to try to subdue a pesky, growing Japan. US should try to avoid building war ships in the Atlantic, if possible. If JDOW1 goes down under these circumstances, I believe it should be welcomed. I may very well underestimate the strength of that opening though being no expert.

I considered bolstering UK with land units in Africa, but simply make priority of fleet. Subs are cheap and really good in these positions. Regarding z106 and z110 I don’t want to choose between them, but rather have both. The beauty of a sub in z110 instead of a des, is that if Germany attacks, there’s more risk of costly causalties, since eventual scrambled air won’t hit any subs, and also if there’s a lot of over-force, the sub may simply be saved by submerge. With the fig in Scotland, hitting both z110 and z111 should be more or less undoable.

The Scotland fig is the top priority in the bid, so I don’t believe that one is really under scrutiny. The fig in Malta though I believe is rather debatable. The idea is to make a cheap taranto possible. UK should be able to save both the ac and cr while still have killer odds.

I don’t worry at all about an early Sea Lion. I can even taunt it, hoping Germany takes the bait. I believe that’s one of the biggest mistakes Germany can do in the early game. Especially in OOB when Russia may get extra strong from territories in ME and Africa. Germany can simply not afford to ignore Russia. That’s my firm belief, but, yes, I have been wrong before. ;)

All around solid bid I believe. If the Malta fighter is debatable then swap for a tank,art for the tobruk take. I was thinking about stopping J1 as well but short of a BB in 37 I don’t think there are many options better than the sz62 sub.

[Omega1759]

50 IPC, to try something different with a bit more pressure on Japan and minimum in Europe. If AndrewAAGamer would like to give a try in a non-league game I’d be willing.

SZ 98: 1 sub
SZ 91: 1 sub
Alexandria: 1 infantry
Yunnan: 1 infantry
Moscow: 1 fighter
Volgograd: 1 fighter
Amur, Sakha, Buryatia: 1 artillery a piece (12 IPC)

[trulpen]

It’s definitely interesting with the, as I understand it aim to control the eastern provinces and also being able to help out the chilese with flexible air.

The only backside I can see is that Russia is not at war in the beginning. Japan can easily abstain from DOWing, although in OOB there’s no direct cost to it. But it also goes for the pressure on east Russia. Not sure it’s worth 12 IPC to dissuade that?

On the other hand it’s usually an easy income boost for Japan while denying Russia important income. Most important is to defend Moscow, if possible, and it might be better served with bids for the Atlantic and Med, since that should give UK resources to send up figs for the defense of Moscow from round 4.

[oysteilo]

a carrier in 106 could be useful (Carrier replaces the 106 sub and malta fighter). Most likely he will skip 111 and then the fleet in 111 can join up with the carrier in iceland sea zone.

However, he might decide to send 3 subs to 106 for decent odds. And BB and sub to 110

[surfer]

Regarding @Omega1759 suggestion,
Russia could R1 DOW on Japan. In the OOB game, this is not so bad for Russia as compared to the NO hit in BM3. Stack all air in Yunnan (3 ftr + 1 tac) + 1 inf bid + 4 starting inf and Yunnan should not fall. Best Japanese attack is 3 inf+1 art + 1 ftr + 1 tac+ 2 bmbr = 20-80% battle against.
Couple that with the Far East forces and Japan is in a bind. The Chinese will be making ~ 12-15/round and the Far East force now requires a sizable blocking force to stop. Of course the Japanese can transport many units to the Amur and Korea, but that wastes their initial several turns. And Russia should be able to back away, if Japan goes all-in in the north, which ties up Japanese land forces that are needed elsewhere.

The down side is that you don’t get to kill any Axis units immediately with this plan. The Far East units have to back away R1 from Amur or the combined might of the Japanese force will decimate them J1. Thus can’t attack Manchuria/Korea until R3 at earliest. Plus, this tempo move would give Japan time to send all a/c south to airblitz Chinese units near Yunnan, and be able to return north when they need to engage Amur. Japan will fight a tough battle against the Chinese and always worrying about their flanks. But have flexibility and interior lines of transport to possibly pull it off.

This analysis is ignoring the strategic value of all this initial pressure. Japan is not getting in position for the DEI and not growing quickly in this plan. Any game that has a J3 DOW is typically a win for the Allies in the Pacific. So in the long run, this bid probably does sink the Japanese.

What about the Germans?
The British Home fleet is sunk, but probably Taranto was pulled off and Italy has only 1 transport. Africa and Egypt are safe. But the Weirmacht is running for Moscow. Turtle the main Russian force is best option. The Brits should be able to start Middle Earth and produce 6-9 fighters to support Moscow. India/Queensland are not threatened, so they can provide a few fighters as well. The US has time to build up for invasion fleet in Atlantic, or perhaps just shucks in fighters through Africa, while building up Pacific to sink IJN. The wildcard here is can you contain the German forces? Can they pivot and collect all the southern territories by G7-8, and put Moscow on lifesupport? IDK…

The US can go all Atlantic, but I think that is a wasted opportunity and may let the Japanese go free. Put the Japanese down, defend Egypt and see what happens.

[surfer]

That said. I like saving the British Fleet and attacking the Italians and Germans!! Probably go with the Atlantic bid

[trulpen]

Those are very good points. I contemplated some of them, but not as thoroughly. Controlling Yunnan is actually awesome. Especially in OOB. The RDOW1 is also inconsequential in OOB, since it doesn’t carry any real draw-backs. The one mechanism interesting to protect is maybe the Soviet-Mongolian Defence Pact. This needs to be evaluated closer.

So, we have two different approaches to the bid on the table. I’m clearly intrigued by both. If we’re to go for what I believe has the highest efficiency, that would be the Atlantic/ME-option. However, the 2 russian figs and 1-3 chinese inf does also carry clear strategic value and is not far behind.

I wouldn’t invest in the northern stack though. It is very much sufficient with 12-18 inf and 2 aa to be able to hold off Japan. If Russia wants to be more aggressive it primarily needs air for skirmishes. Here I prefer that the russian stack rather supports an US landing in Korea, so I actually don’t see much need for offensive power of the stack.

[trulpen]

On a note I prefer a russian fig from a chinese one. It’s nice with two figs for the chinese for skirmishes and defence and pretty cool with an expanded FLying Tigers, but it’s unfortunately rather inflexible in the sense that it’s permanently bound to chinese territories.

There’s always the possibility for Japan to just skip China over and head with full force towards Calcutta. Not optimal for them, but likely better than taking on a losing fight for the control of Yunnan.

[trulpen]

@trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

that would be the Atlantic/ME-option

To avoid confusion: Meant Atlantic/Med.

[trulpen]

My suggested alternative bid based on the suggestion from @Omega1759:

sub 91
sub 98
fig Scotland
art Hunan
inf Yunnan
fig Moscow
fig Stalingrad
1 IPC UK-EU