18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2

[MrRoboto]

@Panther Thanks for helping out. Are you reading all game threads, or what???

@JWWII I just attacked something with a single tank to represent your defending tac and marti rolled a 5.

So nothing has changed.

[Panther]

@MrRoboto Not really, but there are some keywords sometimes striking me when taking a quick glance over the recent threads. So it’s more or less a coincidence. :smirk:

[majikforce]

Also, I believe triple a handles this incorrectly as all attacking dice should be rolled before casualties are selected, I think.

Not to butt in (although I guess I am by posting this) page 19 of the Europe rulebook under step 2 will clear up the rule issue. Suprise strike rolls and results are accounted for before the rest of the attacking dice are rolled. Triple A does do this correctly. And for what its worth I would agree with Mr Roboto’s interpretation of MAX D. (butting out now game on!)

[djensen]

@MrRoboto What @Panther said. :-)

[666]

@MrRoboto I hear ya, I have received good dice in asia, I don’t consider this a fight at all, sorry if you feel that way. Perhaps i should have been clearer on my defensive wishes here. There seems to be enough times where I don’t do the math/calculations that hurt me and in this case I did, knew it would be close, and then for my plans to go awry because I wasn’t clear enough is my main driver here. But yes, with respect to the sub rule and selecting your loses I am quite confident that the rules don’t dictate that a decision on “loses” needs to be made before everything else. I could ask Gamerman etc…for clarification if you haven’t already. I haven’t read further in this thread, perhaps I should before commenting.

[666]

@MrRoboto I didn’t notice, the roll, but I trust you, but to make things more abrasive the extra tac means, i think, that there needs to be another round of fighting as I believe you hit 4 and I had five units, tac & 4 fighter’s. there would have been a fighter left for another round.

[666]

@majikforce said in 18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2:

Also, I believe triple a handles this incorrectly as all attacking dice should be rolled before casualties are selected, I think.

Not to butt in (although I guess I am by posting this) page 19 of the Europe rulebook under step 2 will clear up the rule issue. Suprise strike rolls and results are accounted for before the rest of the attacking dice are rolled. Triple A does do this correctly. And for what its worth I would agree with Mr Roboto’s interpretation of MAX D. (butting out now game on!)

hmmm, I will ask for clarification on the rule for my own sake, perhaps I have it all wrong. Lesson learned, provide OOL.

[666]

@simon33, @gamerman01, @majikforce gent’s I hope this message finds you, I haven’t sent a PM since the new site came up…w/respect to naval battles, attacking SS’s fire, then defending SS’s fire and Triple A makes you select loses, then the remainder of the attacking fleet fires and so on. I thought that this process was handled incorrectly by TripleA, whereby the rules does not make a defender select casualties before the entire 1st round of attacks take place? Am I mistaken?

[simon33]

Triple-A gets it wrong in a couple of cases:

• where an SS attacks/defends with other units and the other side has a DD.
• where a plane fires at an SS and the plane doesn’t have an accompanying DD.

[Panther]

@MrRoboto @JWWII

I am not acting as referee here, as this definitely is @Gamerman01 's part.
I just took a look at the SZ112 battle and realized your rules discussion regarding submarines here and how TripleA handles submarines.

Here is what I can add to this scenario from a rules and TripleA perspective:

At the start of the battle the German forces face the Allied forces including two Allied destroyers.
The Allied forces don’t face a German destroyer.
This is why the German submarine does not have a surprise strike in Combat Round 1, while the American submarine has it.

Now this is what TripleA should do:

It should roll only the American submarine in advance. In case the submarine had hit, a German unit would have had to be either damaged or immediately removed. Here the sub missed, however.

Then it should roll the “rest” of the battle including the attacking German submarine.

This is what TripleA actually does:

It does not roll only the American submarine in advance, but the German submarine, too, and forces the opponent to assign a hit. This is technically wrong and against the rules.

However TripleA considers the fact that the German submarine does not roll as a suprise strike. So casualties of this “illegal” in advance roll would not be removed immediately (though they disappear from the battle screen) but would - and actually do - fire back.

So the consequence of this in advance roll is similar to a roll of the submarine that occurred during the regular combat. The difference here is the timing of the casualty selection.

Players must be aware of this flaw when rolling sea battles.

[majikforce]

@Panther I can’t say I have ever encountered this on triple A. I probably just overlooked it. I will have to keep an eye on it going forward. Thanks Panther. As for the rules it is clearly stated on pg 19 that all casualties from a “Surpise Strike” are applied first before the rest of the battle is rolled.

[Panther]

@majikforce
Definitely yes. However, the German submarine does not have a surprise strike in the given scenario.

[MrRoboto]

Thanks everyone for pitching in! I really appreciate the fact that you guys are keeping attention and are helping out.

The situation we have is excatly how I assumed:

@MrRoboto said in 18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2:

I’m not 100% sure on the rules, but in case the attacker needs to roll everything and not only the submarine first, then battles like these should only be done on the forum.

Maybe I wasn’t very clear on this, so I’m going to explain (it’s basically exactly what @Panther said)

Should the attacker during a naval battle has submarines without surprise attacks, it’s probably be best to roll it on the forum. Because otherwise the defender would need to select casualties ahead of schedule.

This usually isn’t that big of a deal during bigger naval battles since the attacker usually has more ships accompanying the submarine. But it might make a big difference in battles like we just had.

@JWWII
Re-Reading my last post, I realize I might have come across a little bitter. Sorry for that, I’m not bitter. I have accepted the bad dice in this game and basically treated this one already as a loss, unless something crazy happens. That’s one reason why I’m not very invested in keeping one more unit or not. The other reason is that this community is very sportsmanlike and any kind of conflict with other players is not in my interest and I’d rather avoid it than having a very minor advantage in the game.

You’re absolutely right, however @JWWII . There’d be one more round in this fight, I have not considered that. I would need to score one additional hit with my 2 fighters and 3 tacs and you get one more chance to shoot back. I will simulate that battle right now! (You’ll get a Marti Dice Mail.)

I have scored exactly one hit (phew!) and you shot down one of my planes. As stated earlier: please feel free to remove one fighter with the edit function.

[666]

@simon33 said in 18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2:

Triple-A gets it wrong in a couple of cases:

• where an SS attacks/defends with other units and the other side has a DD.
• where a plane fires at an SS and the plane doesn’t have an accompanying DD.

thanks, I thought there were some issues…I should remember these things but the details, the details…often escape me.

[666]

@Panther said in 18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2:

@MrRoboto @JWWII

I am not acting as referee here, as this definitely is @Gamerman01 's part.
I just took a look at the SZ112 battle and realized your rules discussion regarding submarines here and how TripleA handles submarines.

Here is what I can add to this scenario from a rules and TripleA perspective:

At the start of the battle the German forces face the Allied forces including two Allied destroyers.
The Allied forces don’t face a German destroyer.
This is why the German submarine does not have a surprise strike in Combat Round 1, while the American submarine has it.

Now this is what TripleA should do:

It should roll only the American submarine in advance. In case the submarine had hit, a German unit would have had to be either damaged or immediately removed. Here the sub missed, however.

Then it should roll the “rest” of the battle including the attacking German submarine.

This is what TripleA actually does:

It does not roll only the American submarine in advance, but the German submarine, too, and forces the opponent to assign a hit. This is technically wrong and against the rules.

However TripleA considers the fact that the German submarine does not roll as a suprise strike. So casualties of this “illegal” in advance roll would not be removed immediately (though they disappear from the battle screen) but would - and actually do - fire back.

So the consequence of this in advance roll is similar to a roll of the submarine that occurred during the regular combat. The difference here is the timing of the casualty selection.

Players must be aware of this flaw when rolling sea battles.

Thanks for the detailed clarification.

[666]

@MrRoboto said in 18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2:

Thanks everyone for pitching in! I really appreciate the fact that you guys are keeping attention and are helping out.

The situation we have is excatly how I assumed:

@MrRoboto said in 18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2:

I’m not 100% sure on the rules, but in case the attacker needs to roll everything and not only the submarine first, then battles like these should only be done on the forum.

Maybe I wasn’t very clear on this, so I’m going to explain (it’s basically exactly what @Panther said)

Should the attacker during a naval battle has submarines without surprise attacks, it’s probably be best to roll it on the forum. Because otherwise the defender would need to select casualties ahead of schedule.

This usually isn’t that big of a deal during bigger naval battles since the attacker usually has more ships accompanying the submarine. But it might make a big difference in battles like we just had.

@JWWII
Re-Reading my last post, I realize I might have come across a little bitter. Sorry for that, I’m not bitter. I have accepted the bad dice in this game and basically treated this one already as a loss, unless something crazy happens. That’s one reason why I’m not very invested in keeping one more unit or not. The other reason is that this community is very sportsmanlike and any kind of conflict with other players is not in my interest and I’d rather avoid it than having a very minor advantage in the game.

You’re absolutely right, however @JWWII . There’d be one more round in this fight, I have not considered that. I would need to score one additional hit with my 2 fighters and 3 tacs and you get one more chance to shoot back. I will simulate that battle right now! (You’ll get a Marti Dice Mail.)

I have scored exactly one hit (phew!) and you shot down one of my planes. As stated earlier: please feel free to remove one fighter with the edit function.

Bad dice happen to good people MrR and you are one of the good ones! No need to apologize, sorry my obsession with this stuff has dragged us all down this rabbit hole…you would think with lazy gameplay and all my frequent blunders that this stuff wouldn’t get me to this point but we are all crazy at times…Lastly, this game is far from over, a few more whacked dice results coupled w/my laziness and aptitude for big blunders might surprise you! I will get to this in a bit…

[666]

TripleA Move Summary: Russians round 8

TripleA Move Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 Balanced Mod3, version: 3.4

Game History

Round: 8

    Purchase Units - Russians
        Russians buy 6 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Russians
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Western Ukraine
              Russians take Western Ukraine from Italians
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Ukraine
              Russians take Ukraine from Italians
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Rostov
        1 infantry moved from Samara to Novosibirsk
        1 mech_infantry moved from Russia to Vologda
        1 mech_infantry moved from Vologda to Novosibirsk
        2 fighters moved from Russia to Novosibirsk
        1 artillery and 8 infantry moved from Russia to Smolensk
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Rostov
        1 artillery moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
        2 infantry moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
        20 infantry moved from Bryansk to Tambov

Savegame

[666]

TripleA Turn Summary: Russians round 8

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 Balanced Mod3, version: 3.4

Game History

Round: 8

    Purchase Units - Russians
        Russians buy 6 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Russians
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Western Ukraine
              Russians take Western Ukraine from Italians
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Ukraine
              Russians take Ukraine from Italians
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Rostov
        1 infantry moved from Samara to Novosibirsk
        1 mech_infantry moved from Russia to Vologda
        1 mech_infantry moved from Vologda to Novosibirsk
        2 fighters moved from Russia to Novosibirsk
        1 artillery and 8 infantry moved from Russia to Smolensk
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Rostov
        1 artillery moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
        2 infantry moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
        20 infantry moved from Bryansk to Tambov

    Combat - Russians
        Battle in Smolensk
            Russians attack with 2 artilleries and 12 infantry
            Germans defend with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
                Russians roll dice for 2 artilleries and 12 infantry in Smolensk, round 2 : 2/14 hits, 3.00 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 artillery and 2 infantry in Smolensk, round 2 : 0/3 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                2 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Smolensk
                Russians roll dice for 2 artilleries and 12 infantry in Smolensk, round 3 : 1/14 hits, 3.00 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 artillery in Smolensk, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 artillery owned by the Germans lost in Smolensk
            Russians win, taking Smolensk from Germans with 2 artilleries and 12 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 10
            Casualties for Germans: 1 artillery and 2 infantry
        Battle in Tambov
            Russians attack with 20 infantry
            Germans defend with 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                Russians roll dice for 20 infantry in Tambov, round 2 : 3/20 hits, 3.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 artillery and 1 infantry in Tambov, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                1 artillery owned by the Germans and 1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Tambov
            Russians win, taking Tambov from Germans with 20 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
            Casualties for Germans: 1 artillery and 1 infantry
        Battle in Novosibirsk
            Russians attack with 2 fighters, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
            Germans defend with 3 armour
                Russians roll dice for 2 fighters, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry in Novosibirsk, round 2 : 1/4 hits, 1.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 3 armour in Novosibirsk, round 2 : 0/3 hits, 1.50 expected hits
                1 armour owned by the Germans lost in Novosibirsk
                Russians roll dice for 2 fighters, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry in Novosibirsk, round 3 : 2/4 hits, 1.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 2 armour in Novosibirsk, round 3 : 1/2 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Russians and 2 armour owned by the Germans lost in Novosibirsk
            Russians win, taking Novosibirsk from Germans with 2 fighters and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 15
            Casualties for Germans: 3 armour
            Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
        Battle in Rostov
            Russians attack with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
            Germans defend with 1 infantry
                Russians roll dice for 1 artillery and 2 infantry in Rostov, round 2 : 1/3 hits, 0.83 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Rostov, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Russians and 1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Rostov
            Russians win, taking Rostov from Germans with 1 artillery and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
            Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry

    Non Combat Move - Russians
        1 aaGun and 9 infantry moved from Bryansk to Ukraine
        1 aaGun moved from Russia to Smolensk
        10 infantry moved from Bryansk to Tambov
        1 mech_infantry moved from Bryansk to Ukraine
        2 fighters moved from Novosibirsk to Russia
        1 aaGun moved from Bryansk to Tambov
        1 aaGun moved from Bryansk to Russia
        1 infantry moved from Russia to Samara
        1 infantry moved from Russia to Vologda
        1 armour moved from Bryansk to Ukraine
        1 mech_infantry moved from Bryansk to Tambov
        1 mech_infantry moved from Bryansk to Russia
        1 submarine moved from 105 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone

    Place Units - Russians
        6 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys placed in Russia

    Turn Complete - Russians
        Russians collect 25 PUs; end with 25 PUs
        Trigger Russians 3 Siberia Lend Lease Lane: Russians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 27 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Germans : -2.83
Russians : -2.83

Territory Summary for Russians :

Amur : 2 aaGuns and 18 infantry
Bryansk : 1 infantry
Rostov : 1 artillery and 1 infantry
Russia : 1 aaGun, 1 airfield, 1 factory_major, 2 fighters, 6 infantry and 3 mech_infantrys
Tambov : 1 aaGun, 30 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
Ukraine : 1 aaGun, 1 armour, 1 factory_minor, 10 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
Western Ukraine : 1 infantry
Novosibirsk : 1 mech_infantry
Vologda : 1 infantry
Smolensk : 1 aaGun, 2 artilleries and 12 infantry
Samara : 1 infantry
115 Sea Zone : 1 cruiser and 1 submarine
91 Sea Zone : 1 submarine

Production/PUs Summary :

Germans : 60 / 84
Russians : 25 / 27
Japanese : 38 / 48
Americans : 59 / 84
Chinese : 9 / 12
British : 31 / 44
UK_Pacific : 7 / 4
Italians : 12 / 16
ANZAC : 22 / 28
French : 1 / 0
Dutch : 0 / 0
Mongolians : 0 / 0
Neutral_Axis : 1 / 0
Neutral_Allies : 0 / 0
Neutral_True : 18 / 0

Savegame

[666]

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Russians round 8

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: World War II Global 1940 Balanced Mod3, version: 3.4

Game History

Round: 8

    Purchase Units - Russians
        Russians buy 6 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Russians
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Western Ukraine
              Russians take Western Ukraine from Italians
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Ukraine
              Russians take Ukraine from Italians
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Rostov
        1 infantry moved from Samara to Novosibirsk
        1 mech_infantry moved from Russia to Vologda
        1 mech_infantry moved from Vologda to Novosibirsk
        2 fighters moved from Russia to Novosibirsk
        1 artillery and 8 infantry moved from Russia to Smolensk
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Rostov
        1 artillery moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
        2 infantry moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
        20 infantry moved from Bryansk to Tambov

    Combat - Russians
        Battle in Smolensk
            Russians attack with 2 artilleries and 12 infantry
            Germans defend with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
                Russians roll dice for 2 artilleries and 12 infantry in Smolensk, round 2 : 2/14 hits, 3.00 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 artillery and 2 infantry in Smolensk, round 2 : 0/3 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                2 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Smolensk
                Russians roll dice for 2 artilleries and 12 infantry in Smolensk, round 3 : 1/14 hits, 3.00 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 artillery in Smolensk, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 artillery owned by the Germans lost in Smolensk
            Russians win, taking Smolensk from Germans with 2 artilleries and 12 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 10
            Casualties for Germans: 1 artillery and 2 infantry
        Battle in Tambov
            Russians attack with 20 infantry
            Germans defend with 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                Russians roll dice for 20 infantry in Tambov, round 2 : 3/20 hits, 3.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 artillery and 1 infantry in Tambov, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                1 artillery owned by the Germans and 1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Tambov
            Russians win, taking Tambov from Germans with 20 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
            Casualties for Germans: 1 artillery and 1 infantry
        Battle in Novosibirsk
            Russians attack with 2 fighters, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
            Germans defend with 3 armour
                Russians roll dice for 2 fighters, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry in Novosibirsk, round 2 : 1/4 hits, 1.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 3 armour in Novosibirsk, round 2 : 0/3 hits, 1.50 expected hits
                1 armour owned by the Germans lost in Novosibirsk
                Russians roll dice for 2 fighters, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry in Novosibirsk, round 3 : 2/4 hits, 1.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 2 armour in Novosibirsk, round 3 : 1/2 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Russians and 2 armour owned by the Germans lost in Novosibirsk
            Russians win, taking Novosibirsk from Germans with 2 fighters and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 15
            Casualties for Germans: 3 armour
            Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
        Battle in Rostov
            Russians attack with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
            Germans defend with 1 infantry
                Russians roll dice for 1 artillery and 2 infantry in Rostov, round 2 : 1/3 hits, 0.83 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Rostov, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Russians and 1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Rostov
            Russians win, taking Rostov from Germans with 1 artillery and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
            Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry

    Non Combat Move - Russians
        1 aaGun and 9 infantry moved from Bryansk to Ukraine
        1 aaGun moved from Russia to Smolensk
        10 infantry moved from Bryansk to Tambov
        1 mech_infantry moved from Bryansk to Ukraine
        2 fighters moved from Novosibirsk to Russia
        1 aaGun moved from Bryansk to Tambov
        1 aaGun moved from Bryansk to Russia
        1 infantry moved from Russia to Samara
        1 infantry moved from Russia to Vologda
        1 armour moved from Bryansk to Ukraine
        1 mech_infantry moved from Bryansk to Tambov
        1 mech_infantry moved from Bryansk to Russia
        1 submarine moved from 105 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone

    Place Units - Russians
        6 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys placed in Russia

    Turn Complete - Russians
        Russians collect 25 PUs; end with 25 PUs
        Trigger Russians 3 Siberia Lend Lease Lane: Russians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 27 PUs
        Turning on Edit Mode
        EDIT: Removing units owned by Russians from 115 Sea Zone: 1 cruiser and 1 submarine
        EDIT: Adding units owned by Russians to 113 Sea Zone: 1 cruiser and 1 submarine
        EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Germans : -2.83
Russians : -2.83

Savegame

[MrRoboto]

Alright, we’re back on track. And you’re right, this game isn’t over - which is why I haven’t forfeited yet ;-)

Still, without dice going in my favor, I won’t be able to turn this around. Because I’m not that much better than you (if at all!)