League General Discussion Thread

trulpen

@farmboy said in League General Discussion Thread:

It is likely to discourage people from playing the different versions if they also have an interest in making the playoffs.

I also have to disagree. And maybe also prove you wrong. Admittedly I’ve played 54 games this season, but I just agreed on playing an OOB-game with a newcomer because of gamer’s proposition.

You know I despise OOBsolete, or atleast don’t think much of it. Definitely wouldn’t play it if it affected my BM3-rating. You also know that the ranking system discourages players with higher tiers of playing new players or those with a tier-difference of 2 or more.

Anyway, since I don’t care so much for the OOB-playoff, I may very well agree on a game with a player needing introduction to the league. @majikforce did that for me, so now is the time to return the service. I’m happy that @gamerman01 construes the effort of making that possible.

Pejon_88

@andrewaagamer thanks for your comments. I agree with most of them. We also did some additional errors a long the way and failed at a couple of crucial attacks, such as Leningrad but these might not have mattered after an early loss of Moscow.

farmboy

@simon33 I guess my assumption here is that the skills from one game are pretty transferable so that a high ranking in one version will transfer to others. And we have already been doing that with BM and OOB although I appreciate that PTV is a more substantially different game. But what qualifies someone to be league champion is that they win the tournament. And I would expect players who can play in the tournaments are going to self select for the tournaments they have the best chance in, so they won’t use their BM wins to sneak past better PTV players into the PTV tournament.

And my concern here is that we are going to end up siloing the league such that a lot of players just stick to one version or the other. I play for fun, but the competition and the goal of ending up in the playoffs is a big motivator and part of the fun. So my choices around the games I play is always partially influenced by how it will effect my rankings. I will end up playing other versions less than I might otherwise if the games don’t effect my chances in the playoffs. Obviously other people play for different reasons, so maybe this will just be my problem.

@trulpen Definitely its good to play newcomers as it also helps maintain this as a community and bring new players in. I did the same earlier last year. I played a game of OOB with a new player and a couple of games of BM with someone who had recently joined the league. I won those games, but if I had simply not played them, I would have ended up in 7th in the league ,rather than 11th. I don’t mean to whine about that (I’m quite fine with where I ended up. Apart from the top 4-5, there are about 20 players that have a reasonable chance of making the final 8. This just wasn’t my turn) but I think it speaks to how this can be a disincentive.

Again, I’ll be happy with whatever the changes are and adjust accordingly. Just thought this was worth flagging the concern.

Amon-Sul

@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:

I have to disagree with you on that one though. If you play 8 games of BM and 3 of P2V, I can’t see why that should qualify you to be the league champion (potentially) for P2V or even OOB.

If you only really care about getting into the finals, play 8 games of one version then move to another if it is feasible you will have time in the year to complete that.

Well, we can put 8 games total as the condition to play in any play off, and 5 games per game version for that specific play off, so somebody who plays 8 PTV games and nothing else, cant compete in other play offs.

And playing 5 + 5 games gets u in 2 play offs (BM and PTV will be the usual combo).

10 games in a season is ok, and even if u finish 8 only (or we can decrease it even more) u play in at least one play off.

I totally like the idea of 2-3 play offs, it will be so much fun.

Amon-Sul

I am not an OOB dude, but i ll try to compete in that one too.

I like the challenge.

simon33

@amon-sul I would say just one rule, 8 games of that version.

Amon-Sul

@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:

@amon-sul I would say just one rule, 8 games of that version.

ok, we disagree.

let s hear what other folks think, and Gamerman should have the last word as some kind of mediator.

i am for some compromise which would be something that the majority of people wishes.

Tizkit

I’m happy with the direction this discussion has taken, but wanted to add my input. To help you understand my perspective here’s how I would describe myself:

OOB only player – currently no intentions of branching out
Hyper focused – I prefer to play 1 game at a time and analyze it to death, rather than keep multiple games going, resulting in:
Roughly 3-4 games played per year

I’ve become disinterested in the league for two main reasons:

The focus on BM3 and PTV would mean historically that I have to force players to play OOB in the playoffs and create resentment (last year is case in point) – so I’d rather just not play
The 8 game minimum to compete in the higher playoff bracket means I’ll probably never get there, even if I did make the jump to BM3

I think the idea of multiple playoffs based on game version solves the most problems. It means no one has to acquiesce to a version in the playoffs that they don’t want to play. (In regular season they already don’t have to because they can just say “no thanks”)

My one caution is to be careful how high you put the minimum game thresholds for playoff participation.

I’d like to suggest that the playoffs are the most enticing part of the league, and that the higher you set the minimum game threshold, the more casual players like myself are likely to abandon it.

I understand that it’s easier to manipulate your PPG or have an inaccurate PPG with a low number of games. In fact I’m probably a great example of this in 2020. I have the second highest PPG, but I’m certainly not the 2nd best player.

It’s definitely true that BM3 and PTV are the most popular versions here, but the pipeline of new players is primarily full of OOB and casual players, and that needs to be considered.

OwenToo

Since I first presented the idea of 3 different playoff tournaments, I thought I should weigh in again. I think that it is well established that 8 games played is the minimum standard for qualifying for the “League Champion” playoffs, but only because there are plenty of players that can qualify. After reading Tizkit’s post, and seeing that his 2020 3-0 record came purely from the 2019 “2nd Playoff” playing all OOB against reluctant opponents, I see that there needs to be a separate OOB tournament, and perhaps the threshold for participating in that one is 3 games minimum overall. I like the idea that Gamerman had of waiting until July 1 to establish the minimum games to qualify. A minimum threshold of 3 (instead of 8 overall) isn’t merely to accommodate Tizkit, but all of the other newer league players who invariably start in the league with only knowledge of OOB G40 rules, but will not have time during the year to do 8 games.

Most likely, there will be plenty of P2V and BM3 games played that the minimum qualifying standard for those tournaments will be the traditional 8 games played overall, and maybe 5 games played within the particular ruleset (either BM3 or P2V)

If more than 8 players in any playoff group (OOB, BM3 or P2V) qualify for their respective tourney and want to participate, there can be additional “2nd Playoff” tournaments set up as we currently have.

oysteilo

its not a bad idea to have different caps for different games. It may make much sense to put the cap at 8 for BM and for example 4 at OOB.

I anticipate the die hard BM folks want nothing left behind and want the 8 game cap, its fine. Then OOB could serve as an alternative. AND it should be possible to participate in BM and OOB playoffs given you have enough games. I think it is important not to exclude people though

I dont play PtV so I have no input there

ksmckay

I think there shouldnt be any restriction on joining multiple tournaments if you qualify. There is no reason the best player in BM cant be the best player in OOB and PTV. Just need to set number of games to qualify appropriately (which as others have said needs to be different for different games).

This year there were 16 total games of OOB (at least as of 12/1/20). If you make the barrier to get in the different tourneys too high or too restrictive, there wont be a meaningful playoff to worry about.

OwenToo

@ksmckay As Tizkit said in his post, that the playoffs are the most enticing part of the league, and if that is so, and players know there will be a OOB G40 playoff, then likely there will be far more than 16 OOB league games played by Dec 2021, as players that want to play that version prep and prepare for the playoff.

ksmckay

@owentoo said in League General Discussion Thread:

@ksmckay As Tizkit said in his post, that the playoffs are the most enticing part of the league, and if that is so, and players know there will be a OOB G40 playoff, then likely there will be far more than 16 OOB league games played by Dec 2021, as players that want to play that version prep and prepare for the playoff.

Players knew there would be an OOB playoff this year since it is/was the default. Same as the last few years when the number of OOB games was just a fraction of the number of BM3 games.

OwenToo

@ksmckay Well, that may be true. We shall see. What is for sure is that the default needs to change, or be eliminated…

regularkid

Is there really enough interest to support separate playoffs for all three? I doubt it. Keeping the playoffs unified with a default map (probably the most played map from that year) prevents fracturing and ensures a robust pool of players. Also maintains the prestige of a single title of “league champion” rather than a bunch of mini titles that were contested by only a smattering of people.

Each game is different, but as others have state, the skillset you use to win is largely transferable between them–justifying a single title.

For this reason I support Gamerman’s proposal. Three separate standings. One end-of-year tourney.

gamerman01

Brilliant points -

I am liking the idea of a different threshhold of games required for the “league champion” for each version, with it remaining at 8 for BM, and to be evaluated later in the year (like July 1 plus or minus a couple months) for OOB and P2V. It might be 5 for those, but will be much easier to set an appropriate threshhold after months of results.

Don’t forget, the threshhold for participating in playoffs is only 3 games - you just can’t compete in the top, official championship one.

In other words, I don’t want it so that someone could play, say, 3 games of OOB, 3 games of P2V, and 3 games of BM and then compete in all 3 of the “main” or “1st tier” or “official” playoff at the top. But that player could compete in the 2nd level playoffs in all 3 games. I’m putting my thoughts out there because you can change my mind, but I’m telling you what I’m leaning towards now.

I know some of you don’t want to miss out on anything, but I don’t like the idea of a low threshhold for getting into the main playoffs. I can be convinced to go down to 5, especially for OOB, depending on how many games we see played in the coming months, but I would resist going any lower than that. The low requirement of 3 games per version for participating in playoffs, but not eligible for the top one in each version, will definitely remain.

ksmckay

@regularkid said in League General Discussion Thread:

Is there really enough interest to support separate playoffs for all three? I doubt it. Keeping the playoffs unified with a default map (probably the most played map from that year) prevents fracturing and ensures a robust pool of players. Also maintains the prestige of a single title of “league champion” rather than a bunch of mini titles that were contested by only a smattering of people.

Each game is different, but as others have state, the skillset you use to win is largely transferable between them–justifying a single title.

For this reason I support Gamerman’s proposal. Three separate standings. One end-of-year tourney.

I think you are misinterpretting things. Nobody is advocating for what you are saying . Thats basically what we have now and is a big problem.

gamerman01

@regularkid said in League General Discussion Thread:

Is there really enough interest to support separate playoffs for all three? I doubt it. Keeping the playoffs unified with a default map (probably the most played map from that year) prevents fracturing and ensures a robust pool of players. Also maintains the prestige of a single title of “league champion” rather than a bunch of mini titles that were contested by only a smattering of people.

Each game is different, but as others have state, the skillset you use to win is largely transferable between them–justifying a single title.

For this reason I support Gamerman’s proposal. Three separate standings. One end-of-year tourney.

Actually, I think we do have the players and the interest to support a separate playoff by version, which is what I’m strongly leaning towards. The least amount of games would probably be OOB, but I think there will be more games of OOB played in league than in years because it will be separated out for 2021. We will assess the # of games completed in each version mid-way through the year before setting main playoff requirements

regularkid

@ksmckay perhaps I misunderstood. I thought the problem was that the “default” game of for the playoffs was out of line with what a majority of people prefer to play (which is solved by making the default game the one that most people play). What I’m saying is that one championship is preferable to three, even if you maintain separate statistics for each version of the game.

gamerman01

@regularkid said in League General Discussion Thread:

@ksmckay perhaps I misunderstood. I thought the problem was that the “default” game of for the playoffs was out of line with what a majority of people prefer to play (which is solved by making the default game the one that most people play). What I’m saying is that one championship is preferable to three, even if you maintain separate statistics for each version of the game.

I agree one championship is preferable, and we’ve stuck to that for years, but 2021 needs to be the year of 3 championships. I can keep the prestige - perhaps I could note in the annals how many ranked players there were during the year for that version, or how many games total were played by version, near the champion’s name. That’s just off the top of my head - point being, there are ways to not make the champion of a small pond look equal to the champion of the ocean

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