League General Discussion Thread

@oysteilo won’t be playing against me for OOB, sorry.

This issue popped up two years ago in the playoffs and was never properly addressed then unfortunately.

Last year there were about 20-25 games out of 375 that were played with OOB rules. Most of those games involved a small handful of players who clearly prefer OOB but were nowhere near the playoffs so it wasnt an issue last year.

This year There were 16 out of 350 or so games played with OOB rules with 11 of them played by one player and a few other random games. Thought this year is complicated because of the addition of P2V which actually represented quite a few games.

Just to put some numbers in. But for the most part I think this conversation was sidetracked.

In 2018 this issue came up in the middle of the playoffs. Thankfully it was avoided in main bracket in 2019 (though it came up in second bracket). Im trying to avoid dealing with this issue in 2020 as I know I wont be the only one who has an issue with this rule and so trying to start the conversation and deal with it before games are started. Its not a question of what the rules say, as that is clear, but the rules clearly (in my opinion of course) dont reflect the current league climate and opinions. I think the rules need to be adjusted for 2021 at minimum.

If the rest of the main bracket is fine with things as is, then all is well, if not then I think its worth discussing and dealing with ahead of time.

I would agree that BM3/4 should be the standard for the playoffs for this year’s games.

It is definately a problem that the rules dont reflect the majority of the games. I think it should be changed. But not sure to what.

I think most likely it has to be:

1. BM only.
2. All 3 versions, OOB, BM, PTV

@oysteilo I think the league is totally fine and nothing wrong with diversity when nobody is forced to play anyone or any game they dont want to play. So I see no real reason to change the standard league play rules as they are - though I can understand concerns that some might have - but no way to make everyone happy.

But in the playoffs, you dont get to pick your opponent and while nobody is forced to play anything (you can always withdraw), the current playoff rules will/do/have lead to conflict over the different versions.

@ksmckay Do you remember how it was resolved then or what the scenario was? Did someone refuse to play OOB and so forfeited to the player who wouldnt play BM?

@Colt45554 in the playoffs, the default is oob so a player who prefers oob can insist on that. But the practice now has been BM, and it’s rare that a playoff game, especially in the top 8 is oob. So the issue is whether oob remains the default option when it is not often played here.

And sorry I just realized I misread your question. I thought you thought BM was already the default.

@farmboy Thanks. Personally, I prefer OOB but I don’t imagine I’ll be in playoffs 2021 League but it will be fun to spectate! I dont think the mega bids are a bad thing. Opens up a lot of creative options.

@bretters said in League General Discussion Thread:

@oysteilo
Does anyone really only prefer to play OOB?

Yes.

@trulpen said in League General Discussion Thread:

@bretters said in League General Discussion Thread:

@oysteilo
Does anyone really only prefer to play OOB?

Yes.

U prefer OOB over BM? Xd

@farmboy said in League General Discussion Thread:

@Colt45554 in the playoffs, the default is oob so a player who prefers oob can insist on that. But the practice now has been BM, and it’s rare that a playoff game, especially in the top 8 is oob. So the issue is whether oob remains the default option when it is not often played here.

And what about PTV? But that question is more for the future.

@oysteilo said in League General Discussion Thread:

It is definately a problem that the rules dont reflect the majority of the games. I think it should be changed. But not sure to what.

I think most likely it has to be:

1. BM only.
2. All 3 versions, OOB, BM, PTV

Actually, the issue looks more to be whether there should be a set hierarchy, i e default. I think there is today, and that is OOB.

Imo the most proper relation would be:

1. BM3
2. OOB
3. P2V (since it’s still under construction)

This would mean that if there’s a conflict regarding version, BM3 takes precedence over OOB and P2V as the main standard of the league.

Wow - lot of comments. Skipping over the quotes themselves…

1. Surprised to hear that BM3 is so dominant. As far as I know almost no one in our gaming group has played it.
2. I am an OOB Player.
3. Everyone who plays in the League should be allowed to present their opinion. Especially since, my understanding is, there are more than just one Tier of playoffs.
4. While I like OOB over BM3, and I have detailed why before, at least BM3 and OOB are on the same map and have similar rules. PtV is frankly a completely different game with a dramatically different map and ruleset. I have no problem with people agreeing to play PtV in League games but if that is a League game why not also allow Big World 1942 or Great War or Pact of Steel as League games? Playoffs should be limited to BM3 or OOB as they are both on the same Global 1940 2nd Edition map at least.
5. I agree that League play can be more loose than any playoffs since people can choose to play against each other or not. For the playoffs I would not want to be forced to play in a game I am at a serious disadvantage at just because someone else wants to play a game they like more than another version. At the same time I would not want to force people to play a version they do not want to play. Therefore League Playoff versions should be determined ahead of time so we all know what we are getting into for the Playoffs and whether we want to participate or not.

Finally for me OOB is an official Axis and Allies game. Yes, it requires a bid but it is still the official version. BM3 and PtV are not official and playing them instead of OOB fractures the gaming community. I guess a question could be what is the point of the League and this website. To promote any wargaming or promote Axis and Allies wargaming?

@AndrewAAGamer

Finally for me OOB is an official Axis and Allies game. Yes, it requires a bid but it is still the official version. BM3 and PtV are not official and playing them instead of OOB fractures the gaming community. I guess a question could be what is the point of the League and this website. To promote any wargaming or promote Axis and Allies wargaming?

Games evolve over time, in part due to sites like this. What you call OOB doesn’t match the game out of the
Box unless you have second edition so clearly AA games can evolve. Probably Larry and company should have done more to continue to evolve the game but they are a business and continuing to support a game well after being released is probably challenging (though at some other they still support it).

I think most of us play the game for fun. Obviously that means different things for different people.

@ksmckay said in League General Discussion Thread:

What is the plan for the league playoffs this year.

The league rules are a bit outdated and I don’t believe they reflect the league as it is being played. Up until the release of PTV this year 99% (didnt actually calculate but its close to this) of the games the last few years have been BM3. The 2018 playoffs and 2019 playoffs were both conducted using BM3 since that is the game the the league actually plays. This year things are a little different as PTV was released and allowed with league rules.

The rankings as they are (with one exception) reflect BM3 play. I dont see how its reasonable to have any game other than BM3 used to determine league champion. I also think league champion means absolutely nothing outside of the context of this community so I think its perfectly reasonable for the community to decide how things are considered which is why I am asking.

I think at minimum there should be a league playoff where the sole game played is BM3. If there is enough interest I think there could also be a PTV bracket. But I think that would be better for next year when the game has time to be further developed. The PTV game as it is has been changed several times throughout the season and while I like the idea of a PTV tourney, I dont think there is a real way to determine participants based on exisiting scoring. Cant just take the top 8 and put them in a PTV tourney since a good portion of the top 8 have played almost no PTV.

I will admit that I am biased to this discussion. As things stand now if everyone in top 8 were to participate in tourney I as the 4th seed would probably be forced into playing OOB which I wont do as I have played zero games of OOB. I rejoined the league after a several year hiatus 3 or so years ago and at that time the league was playing BM3 almost exclusively so recognizing that that was the game the league was playing, that is the game I chose to play. Having an OOB game determine playoffs in a BM3 league makes no sense (and would only be considered because the league rules were never really updated and so a loophole exists that doesnt reflect play in the league).

Sorry for the long post…

I second everything said here. I play BM3 exclusively, and I’m really not up for playing other variants, and certainly not PTV for the championship tournament. So I too will simply sit out if BM3 is not made the default going forward. I think we have the vast number of games being played as BM3 to warrant this kind of change.

@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Hmm, perhaps P2V should have a separate league. I guess Gamerman01 wouldn’t really want to moderate two leagues though. I would consider doing it.

I think PTV should most definitely be separated into its own league. Let’s not kid ourselves, it’s quite a different game, and far more involved, especially with all the complexity surrounding the land and sea scrambling rules. Different and bigger map, different rules, different Strats, and so on.

@trulpen said in League General Discussion Thread:

@oysteilo said in League General Discussion Thread:

It is definately a problem that the rules dont reflect the majority of the games. I think it should be changed. But not sure to what.

I think most likely it has to be:

1. BM only.
2. All 3 versions, OOB, BM, PTV

Actually, the issue looks more to be whether there should be a set hierarchy, i e default. I think there is today, and that is OOB.

Imo the most proper relation would be:

1. BM3
2. OOB
3. P2V (since it’s still under construction)

This would mean that if there’s a conflict regarding version, BM3 takes precedence over OOB and P2V as the main standard of the league.

I concur, except I think P2V should have its own tournament, and probably its own league too.

@axis-dominion said in League General Discussion Thread:

@trulpen said in League General Discussion Thread:

@oysteilo said in League General Discussion Thread:

It is definately a problem that the rules dont reflect the majority of the games. I think it should be changed. But not sure to what.

I think most likely it has to be:

1. BM only.
2. All 3 versions, OOB, BM, PTV

Actually, the issue looks more to be whether there should be a set hierarchy, i e default. I think there is today, and that is OOB.

Imo the most proper relation would be:

1. BM3
2. OOB
3. P2V (since it’s still under construction)

This would mean that if there’s a conflict regarding version, BM3 takes precedence over OOB and P2V as the main standard of the league.

I concur, except I think P2V should have its own tournament, and probably its own league too.

For example, it may well be possible that someone might want to play in both leagues, and participate in both championship tournaments.

@axis-dominion said in League General Discussion Thread:

@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Hmm, perhaps P2V should have a separate league. I guess Gamerman01 wouldn’t really want to moderate two leagues though. I would consider doing it.

I think PTV should most definitely be separated into its own league. Let’s not kid ourselves, it’s quite a different game, and far more involved, especially with all the complexity surrounding the land and sea scrambling rules. Different and bigger map, different rules, different Strats, and so on.

Interesting, I think you should give it a go at some point. Perhaps you want to wait for the rules to be more refined but I think it improves in many areas. Don’t agree with everything of course.