G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread

I agree with Adams post and I think Russia is way way stronger in BM. Especially the extra money in the first rounds after the DOW makes a big difference. At a certain point then Russia in fact might be suffocated. However, it is the nature of the game that this might happen, otherwise the Axis would not be able to win at all.

BM was not designed to make Moscow invincible but to make it harder for the Axis to get an economic advantage. This is clearly the case in BM compared to Vanilla.

Next to that I do not find claiming African money and sending units to China was a no brainer by default for Russia in Vanilla. Sending 3-4 fast units away is a very big price for Russia in order to fight the Germans penetrating Russia and the reward comes very delayed. Sending units to China early is more viable in my opinion but als has a price tag especially if Germans play DOW1 or 2 on Russia.

And as Adam said, don’t overestimate the double up option on the Land Lease NOs. Early strategic gains are often more important than a couple of IPCs many rounds later. I don’t say economy doesn’t matter, but it certainly comes after strategic gains and position of units.
As I said before, I for instance to not hesitate to invade Korea or Manchuria with Russia in case I believe this is a direct strategic impact on the development of Japan. Cutting 3-6 IPCs from Japan and distracting them in their genocide plans in China and the Pacific is in most cases better than trying to collect few IPCs many turns later.

@JDOW:

Next to that I do not find claiming African money and sending units to China was a no brainer by default for Russia in Vanilla. Sending 3-4 fast units away is a very big price for Russia in order to fight the Germans penetrating Russia and the reward comes very delayed. Sending units to China early is more viable in my opinion but also has a price tag especially if Germans play DOW1 or 2 on Russia.

This is what I think too.  And who does G1’s besides us, JDOW?  :-)

And as Adam said, don’t overestimate the double up option on the Land Lease NOs.

Sounds like a lot of people do overestimate them, yes

Early strategic gains are often more important than a couple of IPCs many rounds later. I don’t say economy doesn’t matter, but it certainly comes after strategic gains and position of units.

Don’t give away all the secrets!  That’s the mistake I made  :wink:

Okey

Good feedback here! My point is not to disagree with Adam and JDOW. Obviously they post good, strong and valid points. It is possible I underestimate R1, R2 or even R3 DOW on Japan. I will check that out! But as a side note, there is only one nation in BM that has no saying on their own NOs and that is Russia. Why did the developers choose to do this?

This must take strategies, tactics and playability away from Russia (or complicate it too much). I think this is one reason why the ME and Africa was included in Russia’s NOs in the vanilla game. This compensation is not directly (or clearly) seen in BM in my opinion.

I will honor that the early income boost for Russia is nice. But I think It does not change much as keeping Bryansk is a lost case against any determined German player

The game isn’t over if Bryansk is German controlled. In fact it’s true, against a German player which is not entirely incompetent and that has a minimum of dedication to play against the Russians, Bryansk is sooner or later German controlled. But here comes the difference of BM now.
While in vanilla Germans can simply go South from there, in case the Russians turtle, the economic advantage was very very hard to stop.

Now, in BM this is way tougher for the Germans, even if Germans are at 75-80 income, they now often have to match 15-20 additional IPCs by Russia/UK/US which makes it not as easy as before to turn the position into an economic edge.

Also the +3 for India makes a big difference. In vanilla Japan often could stack Burma after 6-8 turns without making an big concessions (such as e.g. use all transports for that). Now, in BM India has 4-6 extra units in average until this happens which makes it way harder to Japan to take India. (That-äs why I btw believe it is a bad idea to send the Russians home, it simply makes it too easy for Japan then to push towards Burma and keep the Chinese controlled.)

Still, if Japan is totally dedicated to get India, it often might not be stoppable. The game is not designed to make such things impossible, it just puts a higher price on the price tag.

I’m still doing the Russian wall, not sending them home.  Personally. Just pull the units back one territory away from Japan, leave a single picket infantry there.  Pulls the infantry away from the coast so you aren’t at risk of being bombarded to death, also should pull you out of aircraft range (but I doubt someone’s attacking that stack with just aircraft anyway).  Still able to push forward and cause issues, invites Japan to make Mongolia yours (more infantry)  etcetera.

Also, with the income increase, Russia should be able to send a few tanks over to assist.  Seen some deadly Russian invasions into China early in the game!  Really makes it a nightmare for Japan.

Keeping in mind, my idea of KJF is just making sure Japan doesn’t get big.  Keeping them in China is very effective in neutralizing them, and with pressure off America in the Pacific (not completely off, but reduced?) then American can use those ungodly sums of money to pound Germany.

Again, the above are just my opinions, if you don’t agree that’s fine.  What makes this game fun is that you don’t have to do it a certain way!

i have done about 6 or 7 G1s in BM and have had great success except against Adam of course :) it’s a dicey opening but fun strategy, and it seems a bit underpowered compared to later DOWs.

@Gamerman01:

@JDOW:

Next to that I do not find claiming African money and sending units to China was a no brainer by default for Russia in Vanilla. Sending 3-4 fast units away is a very big price for Russia in order to fight the Germans penetrating Russia and the reward comes very delayed. Sending units to China early is more viable in my opinion but also has a price tag especially if Germans play DOW1 or 2 on Russia.

This is what I think too.  And who does G1’s besides us, JDOW?  :-)

i just beat Karl7 doing an R1 on japan and sending A LOT of russian units over to support china. the strategy included sacrificing all of the siberian stack on the first round as well as a shiny russian strategic bomber turn 1  :-)

@oysteilo:

My 2 cents regarding Russia and BM
…
The second change affecting Russia is also not so good I think from a playability standpoint. In the original version Russia could put fast moving units into china, no incentive for that anymore either. This way you can make J1 hard, especially if you buy 3 mechs for volgograd R1. The new objective discourage R1 DOW on Japan.  Does this change enhance playability for Russia? I don’t think so. Then the new China rules is a way to compensate for this as Japan must occupy every territory with a land unit. I don’t think this does much for playability either way for Japan or China (or the allies). So all in all I think BM has stripped Russia from the few options they had and reduced it just to buy infantry and buckle up against Germany. Of course this is more historic correct but it becomes predictable and somewhat boring after a few games. Of course you reward UK hugely in the new version and also USA and you are somewhat compensated here. But don’t get me wrong, it is really impressive work from you guys! I just wanted to share my opinion regarding BM and Russia. I am not presenting any fixes, just a mild criticism!

@axis-dominion:

i just beat Karl7 doing an R1 on japan and sending A LOT of russian units over to support china. the strategy included sacrificing all of the siberian stack on the first round as well as a shiny russian strategic bomber turn 1  :-)

@oysteilo:

My 2 cents regarding Russia and BM
…
The second change affecting Russia is also not so good I think from a playability standpoint. In the original version Russia could put fast moving units into china, no incentive for that anymore either. This way you can make J1 hard, especially if you buy 3 mechs for volgograd R1. The new objective discourage R1 DOW on Japan.  Does this change enhance playability for Russia? I don’t think so. Then the new China rules is a way to compensate for this as Japan must occupy every territory with a land unit. I don’t think this does much for playability either way for Japan or China (or the allies). So all in all I think BM has stripped Russia from the few options they had and reduced it just to buy infantry and buckle up against Germany. Of course this is more historic correct but it becomes predictable and somewhat boring after a few games. Of course you reward UK hugely in the new version and also USA and you are somewhat compensated here. But don’t get me wrong, it is really impressive work from you guys! I just wanted to share my opinion regarding BM and Russia. I am not presenting any fixes, just a mild criticism!

Yeah, Japan hit Amur and killed it, but that meant giving up Yunnan in the long run. Also Germany had pretty bad G1, basically giving up Egypt.

Should there be a requirement for the Axis to hold 7 Victory cities for the win if the Allies hold Rome for any part of the turn? Maybe 8 if they hold Berlin.

Rome is too easy to take, I think.

@simon33:

Should there be a requirement for the Axis to hold 7 Victory cities for the win if the Allies hold Rome for any part of the turn? Maybe 8 if they hold Berlin.

We considered it, but Rome is too easy to take, and 7 Pac VCs just because of Rome would be quite harsh.

I’ve been bidding for the Axis lately.  Small bids - the 6 range - but still.  ANyone else been doing that?

I would like two or three NOs removed from the Allies. I can’t win as the Axis, with the allied NOs as they are. Then I would feel I had half a chance.

I hear that, but that would require remembering and using edit mode.  Too likely that we’ll forget.

It’s not hard to remember.  If the Allied player forgets, the Axis player will remember

Yes there are a couple too many NO’s - too many islands, too many in the Med

Only have played balance mod twice. Once as each side. Won both but I probably shouldn’t have won as the axis. Seems like the chips are stacked against the axis.  I liked the marines and sbr rules. Quite a lot of NO’s but I can get used to that. My only complaint is the spawning Chinese. Japan should get a hefty bonus if they hold all the Chinese territory or when the territory flips control no unit should spawn. Just my two cents. Looking forward to more games of this version. Great job everybody!!

So is there likely to be a BM3.0 with all this feedback?

I think what we have is really, really close to the Platonic Ideal here.  Just shave off a few Allied NOs - the British Med islands one and maybe the Russian Persia bonus?  And we’re probably pretty much all good.

I love the new China mechanic, personally.  I’d hate to see it go.

Shaving off a few NOs is something I’d support too. Particularly for the USSR IMO.

One thing to keep in mind is the fact that we are used to vanilla Axis, which are blatantly overpowered. If you use vanilla Axis as a reference point, you will be disappointed in the sense that BM Axis have been nerfed in comparison and can’t pull off such easy wins anymore. It will take more effort to win as Axis now, but is it easier to win with Allies? I’m not convinced. I’ve lost as Allies in BM while I’ve never lost as Axis.

Also, it’s impossible to balance a game for all levels of play. For example, some tabletop players think vanilla Allies nearly always win and are overpowered, so they bid for Axis. The bid varies a lot between tiers, with the bid getting higher as the tier goes up, which means that different players interpret the balance differently. There will inevitably be at least a part of the spectrum of players that will require a balancing mechanic, whether it’s a bid or taking off NOs.

With that being said, I’ve been thinking about a couple of NOs since BM2 to address some issues I’ve found while playing, and they would slightly help the Axis.