Great!
Global 2nd edition Q+A ( AAG40.2)
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I don’t know if this has been asked before but after searching online and the rulebook I can’t find an answer to this.
I, as Germany, have a submarine convoying the US player in sz 101. On his turn he builds a destroyer. Now on my following turn, may I move the submarine away from the hostile sea zone during combat? How about during noncombat?
Thanks,
DeimosEDIT:
To elaborate, the rulebook states that if a submarine ends its combat movement in a sea zone with a destroyer, combat will occur, so the latter is probably not viable. I’m mainly concerned with whether I can move out of the sea zone during combat. I don’t see how it would make sense that I can escape if there is another battle I’m going to, but not if there isn’t. In fact, I don’t see why I should be locked in the sea zone in any case. I needed that sub! :-(You can move the sub away in combat movement, whether it’s going to fight elsewhere or not. See “Sea Units Starting in Hostile Sea Zones” on pages 13 and 14 of the Europe Rulebook. An enemy destroyer will force a sub to stop moving when it enters the destroyer’s sea zone, but it doesn’t stop a sub from moving out if it begins its move there.
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… There is still a potential way this can be allowed within the rules. That’s if allied powers are still friendly powers before war is declared. As far as I can see, the manual never declares anything either way on this point.
This is an interesting question.
…Awesome, thank you Krieghund, for reconsidering the topic and for your interesting new information.
I love it, when after all those years topics like these arise, that bring some really new and interesting insights to our attention.
So it has been clarified now that neutral powers may treat territories of their allies as friendly.
The consequece of this clarification is that neutral powers are allowed to noncom air units into their Allies territories on the same turn they declare war.Now in the scenario given by Zhukov44 …
Having a bit of a rules dispute over how the TripleA program interprets the change from neutrality to allied b/w powers.
The scenario is Japan declares on UK on J2. Russia and Japan are already at war. On USA2, USA declares on Japan/Germany/Italy.
Should USA be able to land planes in Russia or other Allied territories on this turn (USA2) or have we been playing the game wrong up until now?
… the USA should indeed be able to land on Russian territories during the noncombat move phase of the same US turn.
Still in general the only relevant question for a plane to land during NCM-phase is whether the territory to land on has been friendly at the beginning of the turn.
We now know, that USA may consider SU-territories as friendly when declaring war.
There are of course some additional requirements in the rules for some special situations (eg. China).Thank you, Zhukov44, for initiating the reconsideration.
Thank you, Simon33, for bringing the discussion back into the right direction with your last posting. -
Thanks to Panther, Simon, and Krieghund for responding so quickly!
I suspect the origin of this issue is related to the complexity of programming the Soviet Union politically. For example, there used to be a bug where UK could attack German units and land in Soviet Union if SU and Japan, and UK and Japan, were at war. But this was clearly illegal in cases where Germany and the Soviet Union were not yet at war. So in the example I gave, the Soviet Union and USA should be allies on the Pacific side, but not on the Europe side (yet). If the trigger allying the Allies to the Soviet Union doesn’t include the Western Allies on the European side (until Germany and Soviet Union are at war) then that should solve all relevant issues, but that sounds pretty complex to program.
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You can move the sub away in combat movement, whether it’s going to fight elsewhere or not. See “Sea Units Starting in Hostile Sea Zones” on pages 13 and 14 of the Europe Rulebook. An enemy destroyer will force a sub to stop moving when it enters the destroyer’s sea zone, but it doesn’t stop a sub from moving out if it begins its move there.
Ah, somehow I managed to completely miss that section in the rulebook. :roll:
Thank you for your time and the quick response! -
Thanks to Panther, Simon, and Krieghund for responding so quickly!
I suspect the origin of this issue is related to the complexity of programming the Soviet Union politically. For example, there used to be a bug where UK could attack German units and land in Soviet Union if SU and Japan, and UK and Japan, were at war. But this was clearly illegal in cases where Germany and the Soviet Union were not yet at war. So in the example I gave, the Soviet Union and USA should be allies on the Pacific side, but not on the Europe side (yet). If the trigger allying the Allies to the Soviet Union doesn’t include the Western Allies on the European side (until Germany and Soviet Union are at war) then that should solve all relevant issues, but that sounds pretty complex to program.
Agreed, indeed TripleA is not perfect in reflecting all the political implications 1:1. May I invite you to (further) help improving the implementation of the political rules? It would be great if you could post issues either here in the software subforum or on Github (what you prefer) and underly those with a savegame of the situation when they occur.
This is always easier then recreating some scenarios, as those are sometimes really complex.
As a nice side effect, we sometimes get clarifications on the rules, that all of the community will take some benefit from. :-)
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Good morning all.
US attacked sz112 and destroyed all surface Warships except 5 Subs and two TTs.
The UK would like to follow up the attack to destroy the two TTs.
UK sends one Sub.Q: If the attacker moves in with one Sub it must attack all Seaunits?
Sub will fight Subs if the Defender decides to stay?Thank you for your quick reply.
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@aequitas:
Good morning all.
US attacked sz112 and destroyed all surface Warships except 5 Subs and two TTs.
The UK would like to follow up the attack to destroy the two TTs.
UK sends one Sub.Q: If the attacker moves in with one Sub it must attack all Seaunits?
Sub will fight Subs if the Defender decides to stay?Thank you for your quick reply.
Yes:
@rulebook:
Enemy submarines and/or transports do not block any
of your units’ movement, nor do they prevent loading
or offloading in that sea zone (with one exception; see
“Special Combat Movement: Transports,” page 16). As
the moving player, you have the option of attacking any
enemy submarines and/or transports that share a sea zone
with you. However, if you choose to make such an attack
with a unit, that unit must end its movement in that sea
zone, and it must attack all such units present. In other
words, you must either attack all enemy submarines and
transports in the sea zone, or you must ignore all of them.
You may not attack some enemy units and ignore others
in the same sea zone. …So the UK sub fights every enemy unit, but the defender has to choose the subs as casualties before removing the transports.
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Thank you P@nther.
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Germany fights with a cruiser and a fighter against Russia with a submarine and a cruiser.
Russia decides not to dive the sub.Germany scores double 3.
May Russia take the cruisers hit with his cruiser and declare his submarine immune to the fighters hit?
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No. You should roll the cruiser and fighter separately when there is a defending sub and you don’t have an attacking destroyer.
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@V.:
Germany fights with a cruiser and a fighter against Russia with a submarine and a cruiser.
Russia decides not to dive the sub.Germany scores double 3.
May Russia take the cruisers hit with his cruiser and declare his submarine immune to the fighters hit?
No, see:
@rulebook:
As many hits as possible must be assigned.
For instance, if 1 cruiser and 2 submarines attack a carrier with a fighter and score 3 hits,
the defender must assign the cruiser hit to the fighter and the submarine hits to the carrier.
The defender may not assign the cruiser hit to the carrier, as the subs cannot hit
the fighter and 1 sub hit would be lost.In your scenario the fighter cannot hit the sub so the fighter’s hit must be assigned to the cruiser.
And the attacking cruiser’s hit must be assigned to the enemy submarine, then. -
P@nther was absolutely right to quote the “as many hits as possible must be assigned” rule
I would point out that the Russian player could have submerged the sub before any dice were rolled to protect his sub if he wanted to. You probably knew that, but just to make sure.
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If the US is at war can the US move troops into and control Dutch Suriname?
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If the US is at war can the US move troops into and control Dutch Suriname?
In case the USA capture this territory from the Axis, they can.
In case the territory is still Dutch, the US can bring units there during NCM, but they can’t control Suriname.
Taking control of Dutch territories by moving land units in during NCM is restricted to UK/ANZAC, as long as those territories have not yet been captured by an Axis power. -
Germany has two submarines in SZ 109 conducting convoy on UK. On UK’s turn they purchase three destroyers and place them in SZ 109. On France’s turn, can the French fighter in London attack the submarines, since there are allied destroyers in the zone? If so, don’t the submarines shoot back at the destroyers?
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Germany has two submarines in SZ 109 conducting convoy on UK. On UK’s turn they purchase three destroyers and place them in SZ 109. On France’s turn, can the French fighter in London attack the submarines, since there are allied destroyers in the zone? If so, don’t the submarines shoot back at the destroyers?
The answer is that the fighters can not attack the submarines, because the destroyers are British. You can have a multi-national defense but not a multi-national offense. Since the French fighters cannot attack submarines without French destroyers to spot for them, the British destroyers are safe, until the German turn.
-Midnight_Reaper
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Germany has two submarines in SZ 109 conducting convoy on UK. On UK’s turn they purchase three destroyers and place them in SZ 109. On France’s turn, can the French fighter in London attack the submarines, since there are allied destroyers in the zone? If so, don’t the submarines shoot back at the destroyers?
Allied units never attack together:
@rulebook:
Multinational Forces
Units on the same side can share a territory or sea
zone, constituting a multinational force. Such forces
can defend together, but they can’t attack together.
(This doesn’t mean powers can share income: only
the power that controls a territory collects income
for that territory.)A multinational force can’t attack the same space
together, because each power moves and attacks
with its own units only on its own turn. Any units in a
sea zone in which a battle occurs that belong to an
ally of the attacker (other than cargo on an attacker’s
ship) can’t participate in the battle in any way. Such
units can’t be taken as losses in the sea combat and
have no effect on defending submarines. -
G1: Germany’s Cruiser/Transport in SZ114 remain unmoved. Germany’s Battleship in SZ113 remains unmoved. Germany purchases and deploys an Aircraft carrier and transport in SZ113. Germany does not declare war on USSR.
R1: Soviet Cruiser/Submarine in SZ115 move to SZ114.What happens when/if Germany declares war on the Soviet Union if the boats in these sea zones remain unchanged between now and then?
Can the German transport in SZ114 load units and move to SZ115? Can the cruiser in SZ114 move with the transport and conduct naval bombardment? Or must these boats conduct battle with the Soviet cruiser/sub in SZ114? Can either German ship move to either SZ113 or SZ115 on the same turn they declared war on the USSR?
And I assume that no German ships in SZ113 can make it to SZ115 on the same turn that Germany declared war on USSR, except in the case that the Soviet ships in SZ114 were destroyed during the combat phase, and German ships left in SZ113 that did not move during the combat phase (or take part in the battle in SZ114, in the case of the cruiser starting there) would be able to move from 113 to 115 during the non-combat move phase?
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Similiar-ish to the above question:
What is supposed to happen when one faction produces a ship in a sea zone with an enemy warship in the zone?
For example, Germany has a submarine off the coast of London in SZ109. UK produces a destroyer. No combat happen’s on UK’s turn as the ship is deployed after the conduct combat phase. Assuming no other ally player takes out the German submarine before Germany’s turn and no other axis player takes out the British destroyer before Germany’s turn, what happens during Germany’s combat move phase and conduct combat phase?
Can the German player move the submarine out of SZ109? Must it move to attack, or can it move to an open sea zone (or one containing only other axis ships)? If it does not move, is combat rolled between the submarine (and any reinforcements Germany moved in) and the destroyer (and any planes UK wants to scramble) at that point in time?
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G1: Germany has moved 4 of its Atlantic submarines to SZ109 to attack the UK destroyer and transport. UK has scrambled 1 fighter from Scotland, 2 fighters from London. France has scrambled 1 fighter from London.
Are the following assumptions correct?
The German submarines will not use their surprise strike ability because of the presence of an opposing destroyer.
The Allied fighters will be able to attack the German submarines due to the presence of a friendly destroyer.
The German submarines will not be able to hit the allied fighters due to being submarines.
The German submarines can retreat without killing the destroyer.
The German submarines can not submerge and remain in SZ109 without killing the destroyer.
The German submarines first hit must be applied to the UK destroyer.
The German submarines must roll at least 2 total hits across any number of combat rounds before the transport is destroyed (the transport is not killed automatically just because the destroyer was killed).
If the German submarines destroy the UK destroyer, the defenders all roll their defensive roll for that combat round as if the destroyer were still there (for example, the fighters can still hit the submarines).
If the German submarines destroy the UK destroyer and the UK transport, combat is effectively done as neither side can hit any targets on the other side.And did we conduct this combat correctly…
4 German submarines scored 3 hits. UK destroyer and transport selected as casualty. No remaining valid casualties.
UK rolls for destroyer and 3 fighters, France rolls for 1 fighter. Scored 1 hit. One German submarine is destroyed.
Combat is over, fighters return to the territories they scrambled from, UK destroyer, UK transport, German sub removed, 3 German subs left in SZ109.
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