with Russia invested in China (IC in Szechwan and raised territory value to 3) and getting the IPCs, pluss the turn order allowing to consolidate, made a KJF more viable. My friend tried it one game but made a couple mistakes with positioning
Delay Japan…..a bit...with Russia
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Considerations taken into account:
- It takes Japan 5 or 6 turns no matter what Russia does to take the Northern route to Moscow. So…so what if you lose some Russian guys on that route in an attempt to block Japan early on?
- Japan opens up heavily, taking 2 NO’s. This usually leaves only 1 INF in Manchuria (at least, with my standard opening, taking on China, Kwangtung, Phil. Islands, Borneo & East Indies) at the end of J1.
With those considerations, at R1 you have a nice option to disturb Japan’s opening move. Move the INF from Yakut to Sov. Far East, and the 4 INF from Sov. Far East & Stanovoj to Buryatia.
There’s 7 guys in Buryatia now. They have 60% chance to take that 1 Japanese guy at R2, taking Manchuria without losses.
Even better, the chance of ending with less then 5 Russian attackers, is less then 1 %.So, by putting all those Russain guys at Buryatia, you either have a good chance of taking Manchuria R2 (and 5 guys is quite tough to kill for Japan on J2 aswell), or, you force Japan to leave quite some forces at Manchuria (if Japan puts 4 INF there at the end of J1, you still have a 75% of winning, with 3 Russian INF remaining), limiting it’s opening options.
So, you have just denied Japan access to another NO, or, gave UK 1 extra NO (RUS taking Manchuria, originally under Japanese control……or does that count as Chinese…? Dammit…ow well, an extra guy for China)
Combine it with a US Pacific strategy, and there might just be a chance that Japan aint all that invincible.At least it’s a bit more versatile then just stacking those Russian guys, and move 'em back 1 space every turn…
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Forget the UK NO btw….Japan comes first…
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If japan buys a transport and a fighter in J 1 it would easily have enough forces to take out a R1 three infantry attack on manchruia. 2-3 Inf from the newly acquired China real estate and 1-2 inf and 1-2 tank/ art form the homeland plus your new shiny fighter and anything else that flies and is not being deposed of in the southern pacific theater or the Indian ocean.
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if japan build a fighter and a transporter in J1, then rembember that the US bomber i western US can reach unprotected transporters in the japan seazone and land in buryatia s.s.r. with the defence of potentially 7 russian inf. should japan then choose to try and smash the 7 inf + the bomber i would really screw up their “masterplan” for J2 as india/australie would become more difficult etc.
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@Fighter:
if japan build a fighter and a transporter in J1, then rembember that the US bomber i western US can reach unprotected transporters in the japan seazone and land in buryatia s.s.r. with the defence of potentially 7 russian inf. should japan then choose to try and smash the 7 inf + the bomber i would really screw up their “masterplan” for J2 as india/australie would become more difficult etc.
Move back one of that CV from Midway to sea zone 62 (Japanese sea zone) and land two fighters on it. Transporter should be safe now …
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Allways when i see russia massing 7 inf in bur first round i kill it first round. This might open up a UK IC in India or australia, but it should still fall J3 if they go that way. Thats at least 5 less defenders for moscow on G5, allways love that approach ;)
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The Russians in the Far East must move back, allowing Japan to kill all your Far East troops first turn is a mistake. You want Japan to try and go North with as little as possible so when they get to Evenki you can counter their weak force and begin getting Russian IPC’s back. By putting them all in Buryatia you allow Japan to kill it easily with a lot of planes and now you have nothing to defend the rest of the way to Moscow. The best way to distract Japan is a heavy US presence in the Pacific - real heavy, keep your foot on the gas because as soon as you let up its over. Let Japan come to you on the mainland.
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yeah, good name, good advice ;)
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@Pin:
Allways when i see russia massing 7 inf in bur first round i kill it first round. This might open up a UK IC in India or australia, but it should still fall J3 if they go that way. Thats at least 5 less defenders for moscow on G5, allways love that approach ;)
You cannot do all: Pearl Harbour, California fleet, China, Dutch East Indies, Philippines, indian boats and the soviets. You have many better targets that that 7 inf, all of them more valuable in some way or another. If you attack bur stack, you’ll probably kill it but losing some jap infs and more important: you’ll have not enough power to kill the chineses. China is much more important: 4 inf, 1 figh, 2 inf they don’t pop round 1, 1 more that they don’t pop round 2 and the last you kill round 3 for a total of 8 inf, 1 fig (probably even more because China will be able of defend a bit if not attacked heavily). In fact, the bur stack is a bait: if you eat it, you are saving China. It’s not a setup for deploy India or Australian ICs that will fall easily (those glorious days are now reserved to 1942 scenario)
Of course, it’s possible attack both China heavily and the soviet stack BUT then you’ll fail killing Pearl BB or make a too risky attack in phi that can fail.
Round 2 is another matter. If soviets are still in bur, smash them (unless UK was so stupid of building aus or ind ICs). In any case, the soviet stack cannot do much to you: just stack 4 inf, 2 fig in Manchuria and they cannot enter chinese territory.
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Problems with Woodstocks original post:
1) Liberating Manchuria does not give England a National Objective. UK only gets the NO if the allies take an orange colored territory such as Formosa, Caroline Islands, French Indo-China, etc. Not if the allies liberate a Chinese territory from Japanese control (or British/America one if you start 1942.)
2) Japan should leave nothing in Manchuria after it’s turn. If Russia invades, Japan gets a beautiful opportunity to destroy 7 Russian infantry at minimal if any losses to itself. (battleship + cruiser bombardment + 6 or 7 fighters and a few ground units should all be in range of Manchuria anyway.) This would give Japan back it’s NO and not slow it down at all. (Invading Manchuria with forces from Japan is on the traditional route through China anyway.)
3) Japan is not invincible. Japan is the weakest nation followed by Italy then America. (China does not count, it has no industrial capabilities, therefore it is not a nation.)
Fighter commander:
The bomber in W. USA would be deterred by the 4 Fighters, 2 Carriers sitting in SZ 62 defending the transports. What else are you going to use those two carriers that start in SZ 57 for anyway? You don’t want to bring them into SZ 56 or 53!
Fun:
If I have the choice between killing 7 Russian Infantry that can go heckle Germany or killing a couple Chinese guys who cannot even invade FIC if I left it unprotected, I’ll kill the Russians every time.
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@Cmdr:
Fighter commander:
The bomber in W. USA would be deterred by the 4 Fighters, 2 Carriers sitting in SZ 62 defending the transports. What else are you going to use those two carriers that start in SZ 57 for anyway? You don’t want to bring them into SZ 56 or 53!
normally i move the2 carriers to seazone 51 for setting up a round 2 attack on australia or hawai or even the phillipine islands if i didn’t get it in round 1. But i can see your point, and i think that i will consider moving 1 carrier with fighters to seazone 62.
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If Germany and the I-Ties barrel down on Kairl and Caucuas there would be no time to send troops to china or north.
G1 2 bomers 1 if 1 art
G2 tanks! mabye fighter?
G3 Tanks!
G4 Navey… all of it save a few infanty.I1 Transport Inf
T2 Tanks and few inf
T3 If and shipsG1 Take karelia with fighters and inf /art Cur bombard.
Camp 3 tanks in East poland with 1-2 in
Take baltic with inf and art. - you just have to take it.
Take ukraine with 2 tanks 3 inf 1 art From Afrika
Take BB/tran with subs /bomber
If you want sink DD in chanel with Sub
Noncom 2 tanks to karelia
G2 Attack Cacuas with 5 tanks 3 inf 1 art all fighter left 2-4 and 3 bombers.
Archangel? if weak.
Eastern ukraine if possible to.I1 Move forward towards caucuas with everything you can. No Egypt yet.
I2 Attack Caucuas with 2 tanks 5 if 1 art 1 fighter 2 CA and 1 BBJ2 India
J3 Persia
J4 Causuas or the one behind it.You will have 4 tanks in karelia Two made end turn G2, 2 non com 1Art if rusains did not take it back R1
Russia can have a max of 13 inf and 1 tank and 1 Art in Caucuas turn one but they loss the ablity to take back karelia If they head north with some or hold back in reinforcing Caucuas Take It if they have up to 12 Inf Or less Inf and a few tanks or art. Just see how it goes.If this gamble works the Russians would only be able to produce a total of 16 units by turn R2 and if they went with offisive units in R1 they my have lesslike 13. This means that you dont have to swim through inf and oyu get a clear and decisive taking of the Caucuas in I2. Then the Ities and Japan can Start tag teaming Moscow and Germany can work on the growing UK US threat and take some of its boots back towards the coast leaving enought tanks abd boots to mop up moscow once the Japanesse and the I-Ties get done with it.
You also have 3 Bombers and 2-4 Fighters for german coast clearing in G3
Japan can step in with Fighters to Caucuas and a india and china thrust which could reach a weakend russia by 4 and 5 respectivly. or hold in J4 Kazakh and wait and attack moscow J5 with the left overs form India and China + a few fighters. Also a IC in India.
Russia needs everything on the german I-tie, well almost everything, front or they get rolled, its turn 4 before the japanesse can hit you with anything sizable mabye even 5 if the birts attack persia.
Its a coppy paste form another thread but it makes a point.
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I don’t normally find that I need the extra fighters from the SZ 57 fleet in Australia. Actually, with them out of position, I might not be able to keep rolling over China!
As for Russia needing it all vs the European Consensus I don’t think that’s really the case either.
With England dumping units into Poland and Russia focusing in Ukraine you can pretty well stem the tide.
(BTW, I like to put an IC in Africa, then have hte fleet in SZ 7 threatening Poland. This forces Germany to go the long way around or go for a tank dash and in the case of a tank dash, Russia’s trading 3 IPC infantry for 5 IPC tanks, that’ll quickly kill Germany’s production edge.)
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Under my Manchurian Candidate Strategy Japan ignores the US BB and brings the Cruiser, 3 fighters ( one from japan other two from Carrier at Midway), 1 tank and 4 infantry and cleans out Buryatia and the factory is placed. If the battle goes poorly the 3 infantry attacking Suiyuan hit once and retreat to Manchuria.
The factory pumps out 3 tanks and the Russians cant do anything
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That works.
I like to put factories in FIC/Burma/India though, since Buryatia and Manchuria can be resupplied from SZ 62.
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I also position my carriers in SZ51 at the end of round 1 and I have had no trouble mopping up an incursion of Russian’s into Manchuria on J2. These carries do not have to go to Australia they are just in position to do so. I actually like seeing the Russians pulling this little cutesie move. Because after their infantry are wiped off the map in J2 it is now clear sailing and open highways all along the northern route. The only thing it does to my Japan is stop a J2 IC in Manchuria which can be delayed to J3, so it is no major setback for me and a huge setback for the Russians.
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Yea, I do like to leave an infantry in buryatia to take Manchuria though. it’s one more attack japan has to do and one more risk of going badly. However, the loss of one russian dude who was gunna take 5 Rounds just to walk to Moscow is relatively minor.
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@Cmdr:
That works.
I like to put factories in FIC/Burma/India though, since Buryatia and Manchuria can be resupplied from SZ 62.
Hey, something we agree upon for a change. :-D
The FIC, Burma, India route is a pain in the a** to keep adequately supplied with troops so my first 2 IC’s are usually in FIC and Burma with Manchuria and Buryatia being supplied by TP’s in the early game.
The problem with stacking Buryatia is that it makes it harder for Russia to hold the line in Chinghai, which is more of a priority. You can’t get the UK NO, China can’t even benefit from taking Manchuria, and the Russians in Manchuria are destroyed by the upcoming reinforcements so it doesn’t usually even slow down the first wave of Japanese infantry that is clearing out China.
Chinghai needs a steady supply of Russian reinforcements to prevent the Japanese from breaking through and at the beginning of the game Russia can barely afford to send the Novosibirsk infantry there let alone bleeding off newly built units to help. So if you want to keep 7 Russian inf in Bury you can expect to be trading Novo and Kaz earlier than normal.
What I usually do is leave 1 inf in Bury and spread out the rest in a line of 2 inf at a time retreating toward Chinghai. That 1 inf isn’t a high value target and it’s a waste of Japanese resources to actually send units to kill it on J1 so it is enough to keep Bury in Russian hands for at least 1 turn. After that 1 retreat the Bury inf to Stc and with the 2 units already there I use them as my rear guard as the rest rotate to Chinghai.
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Yup, I def agree that Japan ICs should be located in FIC/Burma/India. Honestly, I don’t see the point of putting a factory in Manch.
I like to make a hard push towards India on J1, taking out Burma and both 4 IPC British islands so that I’ve got plenty of ground units to take and hold India on J2, as long Germany was successful at clearing Egypt and the Soviets didn’t send troops to Persia R1 (which I’m starting to think might be a good idea).
This allows an IC on Burma J2, and an IC on India J3, which means Caucasus starts to hear the Jap tank treads as early as J4. I find this really helps relieve some pressure on Germany.
If Germany did not manage to clear Egypt, or the Brits have Soviet assistance in India/Mid East, then I’ll go the Burma/FIC route for the factories instead.
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