Japans Set Up in 41

@Cmdr:

I don’t know DM.  Everytime I see America go full bore after Germany I see Washington DC in Japanese hands before the war is over.

Perhaps more people are not practiced in how to convert Japan from a Russian killing machine to an American killing machine?  Honestly, I am the only person I know of that literally had different strategies on how to take out America with Japan in Revised (yea, that would be MORE THAN ONE STRATEGY) that I practiced and actually got to work in Tournaments and League games.  Therefore, maybe I am more open to strategies to take out North America and able to see how some of them might work than other people do.

One thing that you must know, however, is that without attacking Japan, the allies are going to be really hard pressed to keep their income streams going.

1)  England only has the French NO it can possibly have.

2)  America only has the French NO and maybe the North American NO if they can manage to get both territories.

Otherwise, America and England are without national objective income.  That’s huge. (UK could have +15 IPC and America could have +20 IPC if America goes after Japan.)

So if you don’t go after Japan, you could be talking a -35 IPC ding to the Allied incomes.  Maybe not so bad for one round, but that’s not going to be cuddly and cute after 5 or 6 rounds!

Also, America is going to have to focus on building up troops in North America if Japan switches over.  Even if Japan does not win, that alone effectively takes America out of the game.

First, you don’t have the navy now to secure yourself from invasion.

Second, you have to build units for back home.

Third, you will lose units liberating your home

Fourth, whatever is left can go to Europe, but that’s not going to be a lot with only 38-43 IPC income!

First, I like the idea of Japan going after the US, but it is not necessarily dooms day for the US if Japan lands in Ala.

One of the keys to an American European Shuck is the fact that you know how to set it up correctly.  In this case it is no different then 2nd Edition.

Second, you ARE ATTACKING JAPAN, you just aren’t doing it via navy.

The UK likely has 5 inf, 1 rt left over after J1.  They can form a nice mini-road block in Per while you land in Alg on UK 2 and 3.  You also have 1 inf, 1 rt from Aus that can go to Sz 30 (only if safe) or sail to Afr.

Also the US has plently of air and can buy a ftr or 2 or bom on US 1 and this provides the basis for a potential NA defense against Japan.  But Japan usually has bigger fish to fry on J1 and J2, they likely will want to finish up their conquest in the SE Pac.

Again, a proper US shuck from Wus starting in rd 1 pretty much deters any J attack.  The US only needs 3 trns for the Atlantic, more are great, but not necessary.

Here’s how you set up a basic US Shuck.

Rd 1 - Spend at least 21 on inf the remaining 19 can be spent on more ground troops, 1 trn, or air, or whatever you like.
4-5 inf should be placed on Wus.

Rd 2 - Buy at least 8 inf, and spend the remaining 24 on more ground troops, 1 trn, or air, or whatever else you want.
place at least 6-8 inf in Wus, and move rd 1 buys to Wcan, etc.

Rd 3 - Buy at least 8 inf, the remaining cash is spent on whatever you want.
Is J a threat?  Buy more air or go heavy ground, heck you can even drop some subs if J has no DD.

By Rd 4 the US has 8 inf in Ecan, Wcan, and Wus and should have bombers in UK or Alg (which can attack Ala) or Ecan if Japan is making some sneaky fleet movements.  Newly bought ftrs get placed in Wus then move to Ecan (if J looks like it could be a problem) so you have a nice cycle of added air defense, mobility, and att/def for Afr/Eu/NA.

Now, if Japan is building up for a US invasion, which should be easy to see, 4 trns in Jap sz or up north and the US gets really concerned you just lay back and work in a lower shuck.  You do not have to move 8 inf to Alg every turn just b/c you have 4 trns, so if you hold back 4 inf to reinforce Wcan you can end up like this:
Ecan: 4 inf
Wcan: 16 inf
Wus: 8 inf

Now Japan’s puny landing of 8 ground units in Ala gets slaughtered by up to 16 units + air.

No Japan player in their right mind is going to move to Ala in this case unless Moscow is taking a beating from Ger and they quite honestly don’t need any help.  But I find that scenerio unlikely with good Allied play unless they got hammered with dice or something.

Afr NEVER falls to Ger/Ita/Jap.  They can claim some of Afr, but never overrun the whole continent.  The UK lands 4 units in rd 2 and 3.  US lands 4 and 6, and with the above Shuck can follow-up with 4-8 from rd 4 on (dep on J threat), while UK shifts to Sz 6.

At this point Ita/WE/Ger all must be defended at least by token forces.

@Cmdr:

Also, America is going to have to focus on building up troops in North America if Japan switches over.  Even if Japan does not win, that alone effectively takes America out of the game.

First, you don’t have the navy now to secure yourself from invasion.

Second, you have to build units for back home.

Third, you will lose units liberating your home

Fourth, whatever is left can go to Europe, but that’s not going to be a lot with only 38-43 IPC income!

No, no, no.   :-)
This is the whole key to a good American shuck.  If the US player plans for a J invasion form rd 1 on (which they should do by default).  The threat never materializes b/c US can successfully detered it.  (see shuck scenerio above).
It cost the US nothing to set a shuck from Wus (vs. Eus) on Rd 1, it just takes planning, and anyone who has played 2nd Ed should be well aware of how to shuck from Wus.

Edit:
Fixed some spelling.

@U-505:

I think that Japan does so well invading mainland US when the Allies go full bore KGF less because people like you are so well versed in it’s implementation and more because it is not a typical tactic and US players have trouble accurately assessing the threat that Japan can pose and they can sometimes lose track of the Pacific side of the board when their entire focus is in the Atlantic.

At best, Japan can get 11 units(8 from Japan, 3 from Manchuria) to Alaska every turn without building a bunch of rotating transports with extra IC’s outside of sz62. But, even this requires a cost of, at minimum, $64 for 7 extra TP’s and an IC in Manchuria. It’s costly and time consuming for Japan to get going, so as long as the US player properly sets up the unit train from W US through Canada and is always prepared to repel the initial landing in Alaska, then they shouldn’t have to worry about losing the west coast.

Yes, this.

505:

The Alaskan route to Washington is a rookie’s mistake, IMHO.  Japan is far better off trying to invade from Midway/Wake/Hawaii than up to Alaska since Alaska gives America HUGE warning bells (the islands are just Japan being annoying, Alaska is an invasion!) and rounds to prepare to liberate.

Dumping right into W. USA gives America virtually no warning and is much harder to repell.

I don’t see an American campaign in the Pacific being held back unless Japan gives up going after Russia, in which case, isn’t that what you want?  With Russia earning 30+ IPC a round, they can push back on Germany without help from America, especially if Japan’s out of the game as far as the land war in Asia is.

If Japan doesn’t go full bore after America, within two rounds, the American fleet and air force should be on par with or superior to the Japanese fleet.   After that, it’s only one or two more rounds before America’s dropping marines off all over the Pacific cutting down Japan’s income or forcing Japan to build up to counter the Americans.

Yes, it assumes that the American player knows how to put together a fleet.  But your counter argument assumes Japan knows how to put together a fleet too!

Remember, America only has to put in 62 IPC to be on par with the Japanese fleet. (I subtracted the Battleship in SZ 53, the destroyer in SZ 50 and all transports from America’s fleet total and then subtracted all Japanese ships except transports from that.  Transports are not fleet, they cannot be used as fodder, they cannot defend and they cannot attack.)

Round 1 America has 40 IPC that cuts Japan’s lead to 22 IPC over America.

Round 2 America has 48 IPC that gives America a 36 IPC advantage over Japan.

DM:

Problem is, when I see America go KGF/KIF I don’t see a proper shuck being set up.

Generally, they build everything in E. USA/SZ 10 and nothing in SZ 56/W. USA.

If they DO build up a proper shuck, then ignore America.  You’ll have a 3 round head start (1 to build in W. USA; 1 to move to W. Canada and 1 to move to E. Canada before they can be used in Euro-Africa.)  That’s enough time to take out China for most players.

Sometimes America sees the invasion coming, in which case, Japan can hit Alaska, Solomons, New Guinea, New Zealand or something else without really slowing down the Japanese attack.  In that case, it’s normally an “improper” shuck where America builds for one round in W. USA and leaves those units there and focusing on building in E. USA/SZ 10 after that.

In that case, Japan has a two round head start.  1 Round to Build in E. USA; 1 Round to move to E. Canada.  OR, America has to build twice as many transports.

But you are correct, if America invests the time and resources to setting up a proper shuck (8 units a round in W. USA moving slowely to E. Canada) then an American invasion is generally off the table.

Unfortunately for most people, they don’t do that anymore.

Larry should split Canada and USA in more territories next time. Seems that’s the only way of preventing the ignore Japan strategy that starts building the chain in WUSA

Now we have a Pacific ocean that gives much more income than ever and yet many players stick to ignore Japan …  :|

@Funcioneta:

Larry should split Canada and USA in more territories next time. Seems that’s the only way of preventing the ignore Japan strategy that starts building the chain in WUSA

This is actually a very good idea.  Make it Wcan, CCan, and Ecan.  This is one extra move and tanks from Wus cannot reach Ecan in one turn.

I also like the idea of increasing HI to 4 ipc and making Midway worth 2 ipc and maybe Alaska worth 3.  Make Cus 2 ipc and maybe make Wus 8.  Infact I’d have all islands worth at least 1 ipc.

I think this will encourage the US to do something since they can now lose 9 ipc in the Pac (HI/Mid/Ala) and a J IC on HI could even be playable.
I’d also increase the value of some of the Japanese islands (I’d give them all to Japan to start), particularly Sol and Car.  This gives the US a benefit to go after Japan since they can actually gain an IPC reward.  The problem I see currently is the only way the US can gain IPC is to take Alg or Lib or Nor or Fin.  Most of the J islands in AA50 are British and it takes a huge effert to get to Phil.  So the US throws money at Japan but can’t gain until several turns down the road whereas Japan can always gain in Asia.

You have to adjust some starting units but very doable, IMO.

Gee, I was laughed at when I suggested all islands at least be worth 1 IPC or removed from the board. :P

Seriously, if they are important enough to put on the board, then they should be worth an IPC (this goes for Gibraltar, Greenland, Iceland, etc.)

Yes yes, I know, Wake Atoll was barely a tourist retreat, let alone worth anything financially, but it was a refueling station for the US Navy and thus, it had value.  Same goes for Midway, waste of dirt, but at least you could stop and refuel.

Solomons were a HUGE battle.

Philippines should be split in two next time, North and South (perhaps just segregate Manilla?)

I wouldn’t mind seeing W. USA, E. USA, C. USA get split in twain with North and South territories (Sea Zones also split) and a Central Canada dumped on.

IC should be in South W. USA and North E. USA (Maybe another in Chicago - aka north C. USA)

Well, I didn’t laugh.  :-)

I think it is one way to encourage more Pac play.  There has to be some immediate gain to encourage that line of play.

NO’s aren’t enough b/c that just encourages you to do the bare minimum to secure (if it is even worth that) or it may take several turns of planning (ie US trying to get Phil back or liberate Aus) to see a benefit whereas in the Atlantic you can just throw some trns in the water and have a shot at Alg/Lib/Nor/Fin/WE/Ita etc.

I’m not sure how this would work, but one more seazone in the Atlantic to block the one turn Ecan to Alg shuck might help too.  Force the US to go to UK first regardless of if the are going to Europe or Afr.

I just thought of this, what if you split the US into two powers.  Eastern/Atlantic US and Western/Pacific/China?
They play like any normal countries but now loading Pac forces onto Atlantic trans is extremely cumbersome.  Maybe each side earns 24, essentially you force the US to split its resources.  Instead of a playable China you get a playable Western US that includes China.

Not sure about splitting USA in 2 playable powers, if USA builds Pacific, it needs at least 4/5 of her income in this theater to be effective. China is a different issue, of course  :-D

The additional Atlantic sea zone is interesting. It could work  :-) Even better if this leave some room for convoy warfare.

Actually if your going to split the US into 2 powers, you should just combine the US/UK together, but as one atlantic and one pacific.

Atlantic Sea Zones:

I’d say split SZ 11 and 12 into north and south with the south border being equal to the spit between SZ 19 and SZ 10.

Those two will stop 1 Round invasions of Algeria.

Splitting SZ 9 and 8 in half at the same level as the star for the Victory City at Toronto (so it will be split SOUTH of England) will stop 1 round reinforcements of England from SZ 10.

This will give German Submarines something to do in the Atlantic as well, since America cannot just jump across the ocean and dump their units into England/Africa.