Let us know what you’re having trouble with on the triplea install on the triplea thread https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/category/28/triplea-support
I will try and help. If we can’t figure it out, I’m sure Panther can :)
One simple change for G40 balance
-
What if all that was needed to create balance in 1940 Global games is to put the United States last in the order of play?. I have found in many games playing the Allies that the United States are blocked from attacking, but if the UK, ANZAC, and even France went before the Americans, there would be significant can opener opportunities.
How many times has Japan protected their entire naval movement strategies by simply placing a single destroyer in front of a large US fleet… Unbalance being what it is in this game, why shouldn’t a single ANZAC bomber be allowed to take out a Japanese blocker to allow the Americans to strike Japan with force?. What about Europe, a single Italian destroyer can protect Rome while the Italy forces help Germany take Moscow, but if a British air unit takes care of that, than the US is free to unleash it’s arsenal.
So why are the Allies handcuffed like this when they require a 20+ IPC bid in order to compete? Put the Americans last in the order of play where classic edition had them, and lets see if that bid falls to the floor.
-
One nice little bonus with this idea is that fact that it’s fitting from a historical point of view because the US was, in fact, the last major power to go to war in WWII – the last one to “enter the game”, one might say. Japan and China were the first ones to enter the fray, if you take as the starting point the beginning of the Second Sino-Japanese War in July 1937. Germany, France, Great Britain, Australia / New Zealand entered WWII in September 1939, Italy in June 1940, the USSR in June 1941 and the US in December 1941.
-
Like to see how this works out. If US gets to strong with rest of allies you could have Italy go last just right after US.
-
This might actually give ANZAC something offensive to do early in the game and certainly UK can opener opportunities.
-
I like it, the Allies should get the final word every turn with the biggest bopper in the lineup (nothing against ANZAC and France).
-
I just looked up the order of play for every global war Axis & Allies edition in the franchise (including Anniversary Edition), and the United States goes last in each one except 1940 Global.
-
So what would be the implications?…
-
@Young:
So what would be the implications?…
First of all… the Denmark can opener would be a serious threat to the Axis, and a viable strategy for the Allies. While Germany is spending every dime steamrolling Moscow, it would be the UK that lands in Denmark, with an American landing fleet standing by ready to take Berlin, and all within the same round.
-
@CWO:
the USSR in June 1941
sooooo, attacking Poland together with Germany in 1939 dont count as entering the game ? Combat against Japs in Khalkin Gol 1939 and against fascists in Spain from 1936 dont count, attacking Finland, Baltic States and Bessarabia in 1939 dont count neither ? I think it was a big mistake to label USSR as a neutral, even for playability and balance only. I know its tricky, but Russia had in fact entered the game long before the 1940 startline in this game. I think Russia should be allowed to attack anyone from Turn 1, but it can not join the Allies if it does. Russia can only join the Allies if the Axis attack Russia first. Kind of like if UK and ANZAC attack Japan before japan attacked US.
-
sooooo, attacking Poland together with Germany in 1939 dont count as entering the game ? Combat against Japs in Khalkin Gol 1939 and against fascists in Spain from 1936 dont count, attacking Finland, Baltic States and Bessarabia in 1939 dont count neither ? I think it was a big mistake to label USSR as a neutral, even for playability and balance only. I know its tricky, but Russia had in fact entered the game long before the 1940 startline in this game. I think Russia should be allowed to attack anyone from Turn 1, but it can not join the Allies if it does. Russia can only join the Allies if the Axis attack Russia first. Kind of like if UK and ANZAC attack Japan before japan attacked US.
I was only counting the events which marked the point at which the A&A player powers entered the war for the duration, meaning that from this point onward they were at war continuously until 1945. I didn’t count many, many, many sub-conflicts that preceded or fed into or were simultaneous with a portion of WWII. That’s why, for instance, I didn’t count the various invasions and annexations and border conflicts that the USSR was involved in both in Europe and Asia. It’s also why I discounted the Japanese annexations of Manchuria in 1931 and Jehol in 1933, but instead started with the Sino-Japanse War that broke out in 1937 because, from that point onward, China and Japan were at war non-stop until 1945. The Asia/Pacific War that broke out in 1941 was arguably an extension of the Sino-Japanse War, though I have no objection to the more conventional interpretation that the Asia/Pacific part of WWII only started in 1941 rather than 1937.
-
I strongly favor adjustments to the turn order as a way to balance the game over other more involved tweaks. Its just a very simple way to adjust the game that doesn’t require any additional rules overhead.
I spent a good couple months trying different turn orders, and noted some ideas in this thread… http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34157.0
My friend Tony and I tried a few dozen different orders, so the main thing we started doing was to use a roundel line to indicate the turn order of a given game. Our favorite sequences were usually those that had the US roundel last in the line.
The thread linked above was still working on the Halifax model, so there is some extraneous info at the start. Also the standard sequence we set up was alternating Axis to Allies (with the minor Allies following major Allies), so that would be a little different than just yanking the US out and sticking them at the end of the normal OOB sequence, but I will admit a definite preference for the round ending with the Americans since, as mentioned already, that was the norm in all earlier versions.
My favorite order actually had China among the first in the Allied rotation, and the US last, which seemed to mirror entry into the conflict pretty well. And after the first round those two would piggy back onto each other similar to the way America and Russia would piggy back after the first round in earlier versions like Classic and Revised. Anyhow, point being, the map seemed to support a whole host of alternative turn sequences, which leads me to think that simply adjusting the US position to be last in the OOB sequence would be relatively easy to do.
Putting the Americans last also has the game flow pacing advantage of splitting the Anglo American turn, which always seems to drag, since it’s such an involved turn with the UK already managing the dual economy. US last would accelerate things slightly with a speedier alternate back to Axis.
These lines below are more involved, but we enjoyed the most success with roundel sequences shown below on the G40 map, we collapsed the UK into a single economy for our games, but basically you could just go UK Pacific after UK and it’s basically the same thing game flow wise… shows some of the stuff we tried in attaching minor Allies to different major Allies, while still giving an alternating overall sequence between Axis and Allied teams. My favorite was the first line shown, the one that had China go right before Japan, as a minor attached to Russia (basically second position in the overall alternating scheme.) But we had fun with each of these lines… the last line, China last, shows what I think made for a pretty good political pairing of Minors to Majors, and would still allow the Anzac can opener.
But yeah, I think US last would work even in the OOB sequence, without major disruptions to the play balance.
-
Great post Black Elk, seems like you’ve been play testing a lot when it comes to different orders of play. Did you find that the US got into the fight more with minor powers creating can opener opportunities? Do you think the Alles would still require a bid if the US went last?
-
Well they’re still hamstrung by the politics/DoW requirements of OOB, but after Axis declare, having the US in the final position gives them an advantage by breaking up the Italian can opener options in Europe/Africa somewhat (since the US would have a chance to attack after the Italian turn) while at the same time allowing the UK to can open for America as you noted above. So on the whole the Allies I think get the better end of the deal using such a sequence.
So basically under OOB sequence, just with USA last, you’d have…
Germany
Russia
Japan
China
UK
UK Pac
Italy
ANZAC
France
USAIf it’s not enough for Allied balance, you could try tweaking the position of one of the minors so they attach to the Russian turn rather than UK or USA turn. (Since the proposed change already involves one turn order adjustment, a second adjustment probably wouldn’t be too hard to sell.) Or if you kept everything else the same except the US is now last, and even if it did end up needing a bid for balance, at least it would be a new kind of play dynamic. Maybe provide a fresh take on the usual 1940 game without having to change anything in the unit set up or basic rules.
-
I like the sequence, one minor change. If playing Vichy, they are first in seq, and put France right after Germany. Vichy, Germany, France, Russia, …, USA
My Vichy rule does not have Vichy created until end of turn that France falls.
-
Wouldn’t that make can opening much more effective for the Allies? Not a big fan.
-
One change which has a disproportionate benefit for the allies is the SBR rules from Balanced Mod. Doing it that way means that UK_Pac doesn’t need to build a fighter to deter SBR in the early rounds and can do a UK1 buy of 2tanks and a mec. Mobile troops make it difficult for the Japanese to hold Malaya which really slows Japan down.
-
@Young:
I just looked up the order of play for every global war Axis & Allies edition in the franchise (including Anniversary Edition), and the United States goes last in each one except 1940 Global.
Just to point out that the original turn order for Global had US near the end of the turn order. It was change in Alpha+2.
I liked when Italy went between UK and USA, besides just breaking up that long Anglo turn. Italian units if position properly could hit UK landings before the US can fortify, like the Denmark to Berlin move by having the Italians take Denmark back before the US turn. It does cause a lot of problems for Japan having the minor powers able to can open for the US though (as YG mentioned). Unless the US has units in Russia the Italians can still can open for Germany.
Original turn order listed on page #32 of first edition (Global Rules):
Germany
Soviet Union
Japan
UK
Anzac
Italy
USA
China
France -
I would be concerned in allowing the UK to can open like that for the Americans.
What if the turn order ended: USA >> Italy >> Germany (Germany being first in the turn order)?
That at least permits Italy to blitz some tanks from N. Italy into Denmark to save Germany’s arse at the last minute.
-
@Cmdr:
I would be concerned in allowing the UK to can open like that for the Americans.
What if the turn order ended: Â USA >> Italy >> Germany (Germany being first in the turn order)?
That at least permits Italy to blitz some tanks from N. Italy into Denmark to save Germany’s arse at the last minute.
London is at risk, Calcutta is at risk, Moscow is at risk… Why shouldn’t Berlin and Rome be at risk?
Suggested Topics
