@SuperbattleshipYamato I like the ideas/rules you mentioned. I will follow through on triple a.
G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions)
-
@CWO:
Here are a couple of thoughts about the Hawaii thing (in terms of the historical context, not in terms of the potential game angle).
A Japanese invasion and conquest of Midway was theoretically quite achievable (though in practice the Japanese operation aiming to do so failed disastrously) because the Midway island group is small and because in 1942 was essentially uninhabited except for the US military garrison there. A Japanese invasion and conquest of Hawaii would have been in an entirely different league, in view of the fact that the Hawaiian Islands are a much larger island group (both in terms of square footage and in terms of the number of islands), had a large population, and had a considerable military infrastructure.
Conquering and occupying Hawaii, would only have been half the problem because Japan – assuming it conquered and occupied the Hawaiian Islands, something that would have required large invasion and occupation forces – would then have had to hold Hawaii over the medium to long term in order for the invasion to have been worthwhile in the first place. In practice, this would have meant three things: keeping the occupation forces supplied, fortifying the islands in anticipation of an American counter-invasion, and fighting off the counter-invasion when it occured. This would have been, to put it mildly, awkward. For starters, Hawaii is roughly twice as far from Japan as it is from the continental United States, which gives the US the same advantage on the eastern side of the Pacific that Japan had when it invaded the territories (like the Philippines) that are on the western side of the Pacific. Japan, moreover, was (relative to the United States) less industrialized, oil-poor, and superficial in its attitude towards (and its capacity for) naval logistics. Just look at how much trouble Japan had hauling home the oil it took from the Dutch East Indies, or how badly it kept some of its island garrisons supplied during WWII, even when they were much closer to home than Hawaii.
As for the notion that losing Hawaii would have caused the US to hoist a white flag and sit down at the table with Japan to negotiate a peace treaty, I tend to think that the opposite would have happened. The US was collectively outraged when Pearl Harbor was attacked and responded by throwing itself and all of its national resources into WWII; losing the Hawaiian Islands – assuming Japan could pull off such a feat – would probably have outraged the US a lot more, and increased the American resolve to fight rather than deflating it. The biggest factor playing in favour of the US was time: the US mainland was never at risk of conquest, so the US could take whatever time it needed to build up its forces in order to defeat Japan. And given the magnitude of America’s industrial resources, it was able in just a few short years to out-build and “out-logistic” Japan on a colossal scale. (There’s a scene in the movie Midway in which one of Yamamoto’s officers says that if Japan can destroy the American carrier fleet at Midway, the US will be “compelled to sue for peace.” The critical question that should have been asked by another officer at that meeting should have been: “Compelled by what?”)
I actually agree with this, but I have read in multiple accounts that had Japan taken Hawaii either very early in the war or after a protracted conflict, then US public opinion could have swayed a decision to stop fighting Japan and focus on Germany. I can’t support that right now, but it is nagging in the back of my mind.
It is worth noting that both the US military and the American public significantly overestimated Japanese ability to actually conduct such an operation, at least at the start of the war. I think in large part that could just be attributed to paranoia stimulated by fear and shock, but there were multiple contingencies brought up about Japanese invasion of Hawaii or even attacks on the West Coast. You mentioned Midway… in it there is a scene where Nimitz is debating with his staff about where to deploy the carriers for the battle: either aggressively to counter-attack the believed assault or conservatively in between Hawaii and California in case the Japanese didn’t do what was expected (it was stated by James Coburn’s character that Washington advised this as the “smart play”). I am not entirely sure how much of that was ginned up for dramatic effect, but I do think it is representative of the concerns at the time, when Japan was still powerful. In hindsight, it is easy to see that the threat to both Hawaii and the US was overblown, but at the time there were many unknowns and the threat was perceived as very real. I think that should factor into a house rule of this nature.
Hoffmann,
It seems to me that San Francisco VC makes for a better peace treaty condition, Hawaii was important but from a game POV, it is more difficult to seize it than Hawaii. Playing the whole game on a gambit VC, I would rise the challenge.
I’m trying to rise up interesting targets for Japan and giving them Victory conditions which they can get only by fighting in PTO seems a way to incente USA doing something.
If San Francisco, Hawaii, Wellington, Sydney and Calcutta are 5 VCs, and it requires Japan to take 4 of them, it seems an interesting Challenge.And if we do the same on Europe: Leningrad, Stalingrad, Moscow, London and Cairo makes 5 VCs, also Germany must take 4 of them makes for a hard challenge.
So what do you think of European and Asian Axis 1942.2 victory conditions?
Each (non-capital) VC taken providing 3 IPCs swing into a Warchest which can be shared by each side could help each Axis power but on start these VCs provide more incomes for Allies. -
I think it’s worth exploring an alternative to sudden death for the VC win. Even if Hawaii is the main focus for the Pacific (rather than North America), the trick is making the capture of the Honolulu VC significant enough that it drives the game towards conclusion (using a clear economic incentive) without just forcing it to end abruptly right then and there.
Sudden death or capping the game by rounds, is only really satisfying under tournament conditions, where time is the main consideration for resolution. In a more casual home game, people seem to prefer concession, with large economic swings to reinforce resolution.
Right now OOB the US at war gets a ton of objective money for controlling the continental US. If you put it all on Hawaii instead, maybe that’s enough to reorient both sides on Honolulu as a principle objective? Probably simpler in this instance to just use the regular objective scheme since Hawaii is kind of special case in Global.
1942.2 on the other hand, there is no broader objective scheme in opperation, so that’s where a more robust but generic VC = Cash mechanic might be easier to work with. But my thought there is that if a VC economic driver is put in place for 1942.2, the same should carry over into 1940, just for consistency. But then you could use the more standard objective bonuses to further push the gameplay in the desired direction. Basically make Hawaii a lot more challenging for Japan to take than it is OOB (but not impossible as the SF VC is OOB), and considerably more influential than it is OOB for the American economy. In gameplay terms it would be ideal if, after they have secured themselves economically in Asia and the South Pacific, Japan looks to Honolulu as a serious contender for the prime objective for Axis victory, on par with Calcutta/Cairo or even Moscow. I also agree it would be nice if Anzac was similarly boosted as a main objective. Perhaps connecting directly to a large American or UK (Europe) bonus.
In general, I like the idea of fewer objectives in G40, but with more weight to each. I think the standard bonus should be on the order of 10 ipcs or more, rather than 5 ipcs or less. Fewer objectives to track in total, but with each being a major economic driver, at least relative to capital capture.
-
@Baron:
Hoffmann,
It seems to me that San Francisco VC makes for a better peace treaty condition, Hawaii was important but from a game POV, it is more difficult to seize it than Hawaii. Playing the whole game on a gambit VC, I would rise the challenge.
I’m trying to rise up interesting targets for Japan and giving them Victory conditions which they can get only by fighting in PTO seems a way to incente USA doing something.
If San Francisco, Hawaii, Wellington, Sydney and Calcutta are 5 VCs, and it requires Japan to take 4 of them, it seems an interesting Challenge.And if we do the same on Europe: Leningrad, Stalingrad, Moscow, London and Cairo makes 5 VCs, also Germany must take 4 of them makes for a hard challenge.
So what do you think of European and Asian Axis 1942.2 victory conditions?
Each (non-capital) VC taken providing 3 IPCs swing into a Warchest which can be shared by each side could help each Axis power but on start these VCs provide more incomes for Allies.I think it’s worth exploring an alternative to sudden death for the VC win. Even if Hawaii is the main focus for the Pacific (rather than North America), the trick is making the capture of the Honolulu VC significant enough that it drives the game towards conclusion (using a clear economic incentive) without just forcing it to end abruptly right then and there.
Sudden death or capping the game by rounds, is only really satisfying under tournament conditions, where time is the main consideration for resolution. In a more casual home game, people seem to prefer concession, with large economic swings to reinforce resolution.
Right now OOB the US at war gets a ton of objective money for controlling the continental US. If you put it all on Hawaii instead, maybe that’s enough to reorient both sides on Honolulu as a principle objective? Probably simpler in this instance to just use the regular objective scheme since Hawaii is kind of special case in Global.
I agree with you both. Perhaps making Hawaii stand on its own as a major objective is too much. If you included it in the USA’s continental bonus it would be almost as important but not give the sudden death punch you mentioned.
All that said, I don’t think that a Hawaii based objective alone will give either the US or Japan enough reason to have an outright PTO war of their own. It could, but it’s hard to tell because the focus is completely around one island on the eastern side of the Pacific. You’d have to playtest it. The US cannot stand to lose it, I just wonder if Japan would exert the effort to try to take it once the US fortifies it. It would be denial of US resources (taking Hawaii) vs using potential money and equipment spent taking Hawaii to bring in more resources for Japan elsewhere (Asia). Does that help Japan force a quicker victory than a JCC? Hard to tell. (None of this takes into account whatever revised VC/warchest rules you plan to use in addition).
Haven’t considered this rule for 42.2. While I think 42.2 could be revised in this way, to achieve better play results, I think we all realize that we won’t be able to just use G40 rule revisions and sub them into 42.2 at face value. The smaller scale and complexity of 42.2 will require a great deal of simplification or outright change from whatever rules are proposed for G40… at least as it pertains to political rules and VCs, IMO. But you guys have already mentioned that.
-
**Right now OOB the US at war gets a ton of objective money for controlling the continental US. If you put it all on Hawaii instead, maybe that’s enough to reorient both sides on Honolulu as a principle objective? Probably simpler in this instance to just use the regular objective scheme since Hawaii is kind of special case in Global.
1942.2 on the other hand, there is no broader objective scheme in opperation, so that’s where a more robust but generic VC = Cash mechanic might be easier to work with. But my thought there is that if a VC economic driver is put in place for 1942.2, the same should carry over into 1940, just for consistency. But then you could use the more standard objective bonuses to further push the gameplay in the desired direction**. Basically make Hawaii a lot more challenging for Japan to take than it is OOB (but not impossible as the SF VC is OOB), and considerably more influential than it is OOB for the American economy. In gameplay terms it would be ideal if, after they have secured themselves economically in Asia and the South Pacific, Japan looks to Honolulu as a serious contender for the prime objective for Axis victory, on par with Calcutta/Cairo or even Moscow. I also agree it would be nice if Anzac was similarly boosted as a main objective. Perhaps connecting directly to a large American or UK (Europe) bonus.
In general, I like the idea of fewer objectives in G40, but with more weight to each. I think the standard bonus should be on the order of 10 ipcs or more, rather than 5 ipcs or less. Fewer objectives to track in total, but with each being a major economic driver, at least relative to capital capture.
I believe both 1942.2 and G40 should have similar victory conditions per theatre.
That way, in 1942.2, Japan will not have to Center Crush systematically.
VCs owned and conquered VCs should help to constitute a warchest which can be use to help the weakest member of the alliance. This does not forbid friendly Axis power to help other for example, helping taking Cairo or Stalingrad but capturing VC in his own Asian theatre might be easier.Probably Hawaii can still be a turning point with an higher IPCs value and VC swing for 1942.2 while, as you said Black Elk, G40 USA might have a 10 IPCs NO on that advance US base, and more if as 1942.2 have an higher IPCs value.
Wellington and Sydney can be considered VCs in both games and get IC and higher value in 1942.2.
All zero Islands should be 1 IPC to still gives incentive to fight around them.Western China should be impassable so it keeps G40 China entanglement similarities.
Why not use a NAP between Japan and Russia in both?
The idea would be to allow Japan both directions viable, East as well as West.
After all, Germany would have been more than happy that Russia fight on two fronts, (usual JCC) but historically, Japan had enough on his hands with China, UK and USA and never fight Russia.
This is what we hope somehow, let us give a few IPCs to Japan under NAP so it can hope to give a real fight in PTO. (So, instead of an hopeless scenario, can it be a working scenario if USA spend too much in ATO.)Do you agree on this principle about 1942.2 Redesign being a mirror-like of G40?
-
Wellington and Sydney can be considered VCs in both games and get IC and higher value in 1942.2.
I just want to check in with you guys for a moment to see what the intended scope of this project is, i.e., to see how deeply people are willing to change the game.
Are we…
- Adding Victory Cities to the 1942.2 map? To the G40 map?
- Changing IPC values on the 1942.2 map? On the G40 map?
- Redrawing the territories (beyond just making Western China impassible) on the 1942.2 map? On the G40 map?
- Adding new sculpts (e.g. tactical bomber) to the 1942.2 game? To the G40 game (e.g. paratroopers)?
I am happy to help design, write up, and playtest any and all of the changes above, and then some, but I know there was some resistance earlier in the thread to making “radical” changes to the map.
I volunteer to try to put all of the house rules we’ve been discussing on one sheet of A4 printer paper in MS Word / PDF format, but before I do that, I want to know which rules are fair game!
-
I’m happy to see your enthusiasm and open mind Argothair.
I cannot say for sure that we are doing 1 to 3 actions of your list.
We are talking to expand Japan viable options on both 1942.2 and G40 outside Center Crush and Tank Drive to Moscow. Trying to get a better feel of WWII theme in combat unit interactions, tactics and strategies.
General guidelines are: simpler as possible, historically accurate as possible, less radical change as possible, which means to use as most as possible what is already in A&A universe.Once this said, I know for sure that TcB will be tried in 1942.2 Redesign, it totally increase the overall experience and reach our general goals in conjunction with Fighter unit.
And many more units can also be tried in Triple A engine; what will pass the cut to tabletop game IDK.
Some changes are easier to put on Triple A, like adding units, than in real material world, which need sculpts to convey the idea on board. But others are easier to implement, like Impassable Western China because it only requires to enforced it the way some people enforced Dardanelle’s Straight : No warship in Black Sea due to Turkey being Neutral.Black Elk is the Mastermind of all Redesign project and will certainly add is perspective to answer your question.
For now, I would just add that your worries are totally legitimate and I don’t feel these HRs on G40 and 1942.2 Japan Redesign options are ready to roll. More POVs exchange might help get a better start for playtests.
-
I am happy to help design, write up, and playtest any and all of the changes above, and then some, but I know there was some resistance earlier in the thread to making “radical” changes to the map.
I volunteer to try to put all of the house rules we’ve been discussing on one sheet of A4 printer paper in MS Word / PDF format, but before I do that, I want to know which rules are fair game!
That would greatly help, if we could get a Word and/or PDF version of the changes.
-
All changes and new units will be in Triple A notes too.
-
In practical terms its not that difficult to alter the number of VCs, or to go with a Victory Territory scheme (or even change individual territory values via NOs), all that can be achieved with rules wording.
For me, with the VC issue, it’s more about finding a working alternative to sudden death. For those who like sudden death, the main goal is usually just a VC spread that allows for a win at some level without requiring Moscow/London or Berlin/Tokyo. Though that still strikes me as mainly a tournament thing, or a quick game thing. Any number of total VCs in sudden death, will still come down to a single VC do or die situation.
My thought would be a universal system that makes VC capture something on the order of a mini capital capture. Something that will really motivate a VC oriented play pattern throughout, rather than just as a feature of the endgame.
Even if 1942.2 is decidedly less popular than G40, something tells me it will be easier to go from the smaller board to the larger board, than the other way round. If only because the challenge on the smaller board is more pronounced. Probably why I keep drifting into that discussion, despite the title of the thread.
:-DBarney has a pretty extensive doc going on units and some other features discussed in this thread for G40, but it’s not fully complete yet for some other HRs. We will definitely want a doc for those too.
Some things are easy to achieve in tripleA with a single add tech edit at the start of the match. Others might require more active editing while the game is ongoing, or certain things by player agreement/player enforced. I’m kind of holding off until the gamefiles are complete for G40 and 1942.2, to see which of these might be handled by a general wording for both boards, or which might need to be implemented slightly differently for each.
There are also some unit options in the gamefile which are more experimental than others, included more for flexible playtesting or proof of concept, but which don’t necessarily port easily onto the table top. It would be easier for example to add extra VCs with a marker or token FtF, than it would be to get new sculpts for each nation. So allowing for one, it would be hard to dismiss the other as impractical.
I tend to favor stuff right now that doesn’t alter the physical characteristics of the map, unless it is very simple to represent graphically (like with a marker.) People who want to design new maps, either printable or in tripleA, have several options for that. But I think many would like a way to use the official materials, that doesn’t require a trip to the printers or downloading new map files, or buying a bunch of new sculpts. So I’d still take the OOB map/roster as the basis for my recommended HR “settings,” even if many other options are available for those who want to pursue a more radical overhaul.
:-D -
Also, not to throw a new can of worms onto the table mid conversation, but…
What do you guys think about using the Kamikazi graphics/tokens to represent something other than just Kamikazi attacks?
The island territories in Kamakazi zones, especially Marianas, Iwo, Okinawa, Formosa, are not particularly well served by having yet another reason for the Allies to avoid them. Seems to me that a better use for these materials (which are included in the box) would be to create some kind of Pacific campaign bonus around them. Not that one needs to remove the Kamikazi feature per se, just that it would kind of make sense if the Allies (and the US in particular) had a clear gameplay incentive to control these sea zones/associated islands.
They are already unattractive targets OOB, and the Kamakazi attacks just make them even more unattractive, with no real trade off for the Allies.
Any thoughts?
-
Maybe give a 5 icp NO to any country controlling up to so many sea zones next to kami token or symbol ? Or they attack or blow up the symbol and get some kind of bonus.
Treat it like an island or a Kami base. You can damage it. Can’t launch any Kami’s in those sea zones until repaired.
-
It sounds like changing territory values would require marking up the map in a way that’s more permanent / radical than people might want.
Is everyone OK with introducing a “minor factory” into the 1942.2 overhaul? By combining minor factories and national objectives, we can make fringe territories like New Zealand more important without the need to change their actual IPC value
As a Plan B, I guess you could say that either all factories get +2 to their production capacity or that all VCs get +2 to their production caps, but I don’t think those solutions are nearly as elegant. Giving all territories +2 to production takes too much pressure off of Caucasus, London, India, etc., and giving only VCs +2 to production introduces a new mental step that players have to think about when figuring out how many units they can produce.
Minor factories could be represented with a factory token over a green chip in face to face games (or if you have the older 3-D style factory sculpts left over from Revised, you can use those for major factories and save the 2D chits for minors).
-
On TTy IPCs values, I think about it and it is quite easy to adjust by using a few dedicated control marker with the new number inside. For instance, I may use my UK NatConMark and write a 3 in center and put it on TTy like Eastern Australia.
I can do 1IPC NCM for zero IPC island.
You need one per TTy and use blank NCM as usual when capturing such TTy. -
Vote up this comment if you want to increase production caps by directly increasing territory values (e.g., using Baron Munchhausen’s national control marker idea).
-
Vote up this comment if you want to increase production caps by adding minor factories to the 1942.2 overhaul.
-
Vote up this comment if you want to increase production caps using a global bonus (e.g. +2 production for all territories).
-
@SS Yeah, something along those lines is what I was thinking. Right now Kamakazi attacks aren’t a big feature of the gameplay, mainly because the US just avoids those zones whenever possible. I think the idea is novel, to acknowledge this aspect of the Japanese final defense, but just wasn’t implemented in a way that encourages the conditions necessary for the mechanic to be commonly used.
On the factories, I think any of those 3 solutions is workable. Another alternative to marking up a control roundel, is to simply place a die on the territory with its value facing up, since most will be under d6.
My preference for the +2 idea is that it activates more territories on the map, without requiring additional materials or special treatment, and leaves production expansion more at the players discretion. I think it comes down to whether you are more interested in introducing money or just production capacity. It also allows you to try other things, such as restricting the bonus only if the factory is under control of the territory’s original owner. Or you could cap the bonus in other ways, restricting it just to infantry etc. Some of the lower value territories such as Caucasus, Karelia, India, Italy etc might end up more balanced under such conditions, since taking pressure off still requires the investment of resources.
From an initial map design standpoint, I think direct adjustment to ipc values would have been simpler. But for a redesign of the existing map, I think this may be somewhat less appealing visually.
The inclusion of a minor factory or some other kind of army base that spawns infantry, certainly seems doable to me.
In general I think the game is more entertaining if you allow more entry points for new units, rather than fewer (which seems to be the trend on the recent boards.)
Ps. Also, just to clarify, the +2 idea was suggested as is, because that particular tech basically already exists in both games haha. So pretty simple to get it working. All you’d have to do in tripleA is remove the line that restricts these advanced factories to starting territories worth 3 ipcs or more, so they can be placed wherever. Then assign the tech to everyone via edit mode.
-
So what about a +2 bonus to all factories that’s limited to infantry production? E.g., a factory in New Zealand can produce one unit of any type (because it is worth 1 IPC) plus 2 infantry (because all factories can do that).
A factory in the Caroline Islands can produce only 2 infantry.
The factory in India can produce three units of any types (because India is worth 3 IPCs), plus, if desired, 2 additional infantry.
Would that get the job done as far as production caps? I think it’s an elegant compromise.
-
Yeah I think that would be pretty simple. Probably the easiest solution though, is just to create a new unit called army base, that does exactly this (produces infantry and nothing else).
Then if you wanted to assign a starting army base to all territories with an existing Industrial Complex you could, or you could only give it to certain select territories with starting ICs as part of a set up mod, or just leave it as a purchase option. And if someone wants to build one in India or Caucasus or wherever they could do so, but you don’t necessarily need to mod the set up, just the purchase roster.
-
Somewhere I read about a suggestion to allow VCs to produce infantry, even without an industrial complex. I think the limitation was similar to the first bullet point. The others may be realistic considerations:
-
non-capital VCs automatically produce 1 (or 2) infantry per turn for the controlling Power.
-
non-capital VCs can mobilize up to the territory’s production value in infantry units per turn (must be purchased by controlling power)
-
combination of the two above, but complicates things: automatically produce 1 infantry per turn, can mobilize a number up to territory production value if purchased.
In OOB G40, that mostly benefits Germany (Warsaw) and Japan (Shanghai) and the UK in both Cairo and Hong Kong. For the UK that could be significant given the critical nature of both those territories. Other than that, such a rule would hardly affect gameplay as most VCs already have factories on them.
-
Suggested Topics
