Hit-and-run Yugoslavia from G.S.Germany? Is the "retreat" legal or exploitative?

[AlphaKappa]

This is a hypothetical move I’ve been considering for Germany turn 1 and I’d like to know if it’s a legal one!

Here’s a graphic to illustrate it: http://i.imgur.com/DOIEJ.jpg
(Purple route shows path of retreat)

So what if Greater Southern Germany and Romania attack Yugoslavia but then retreat after the first or second roll?  Could the infantry and artillery from G.S.G. retreat into Romania?

If so, I think this would be a really interesting strategy:  G1, weaken Yugoslavia with a hit-and-run attack and then set up your troops in Romania for a G2 Barbarossa.  Then on Italy 1, use 1 tank & 1 infantry from Albania and also some troops from Northern Italy to finish off Yugoslavia (also using 1 Albanian infantry to take Bulgaria).

I’m a big believer in strengthening Italy as much as possible!

[allweneedislove]

alpha, this is a legal retreat.

[oztea]

Legal, and a good move.
Softens up Yugoslavia for Italy, who needs the cash, and gets Germans to the front lines, very scary for Russia on its first turn.

[creeping-deth87]

It’s totally legal, and I actually do it all the time to follow up with a G2 Barbarossa. As mentioned it’s also helps out Italy which is a nice bonus.

[Imperious Leader]

You can always retreat like that as long as at least one unit from the same area was involved in the battle. That is to say you can only retreat to areas you came from and choose among them.

[Cow]

this is called strafing, it is not uncommon to see.

[AlphaKappa]

Thanks for your replies!

Alright, well then following that train of thought, what are some other coinciding moves that could be made to do an effective G2 Barbarossa?

[DWoodchuck]

I see moves like that as representing a sort of “fighting march” through enemy territory, with both locations opening up a temporary corridor for shifting troops.  A very clever move, and I’d say it really captures the idea of Blitzkrieg and motorized combat.  Thanks for pointing out a new dirty trick to use on my buddies.

[Zhukov44]

I think buying mech/arm G1/G2, strafing yugo (retreat all to Rom), then declaring on Russia G2, and going for a G5 Moscow take….this is a strategy worth trying.

I haven’t tried it much because

1. in a dice game you can never be sure you won’t get 5 hits in Yugo…which could upset the plan.
2. declaring G2 is also +5 for R and -5 for G on round 2.
3. it seems riskier on the whole then going for Moscow G6 or G7.
4. as axis i want Germany to control as much territory and earn as many ipcs as possible…

All that said, it’s worth a try.

[Fortress]

I hate when I type out a long and thought-out post and my connection drops when I post. Thanks, Barnes and Noble…

Anyway…

to recap (much more briefly)… Zhukov’s points (especially #4) are dead on.

I have never tried this for many of the same reason, plus that buying mechs and tanks starting G1 instead of infantry and artillery gets expesive when you’re killing stacks of Soviet infantry.

The other main reason is that I can’t see a VC win without a bunch of other things having to go perfectly.

If somebody has a link to a game where the Yugostrafe-G2Barb-G5Moscow-EuropeAxisWin was pulled off against a well-executed Allied play, I’d like to see it. I’m also volunteering to take Allies in G40.2 no bid against somebody who wants their G1 and G2 to go this way, so that we can test how Japanese play and Allied play all fit together with this German lead.

[oztea]

There is something to be said for scaring Russia on it’s first turn. Putting it in a position where a G2 attack is a credible possibility is important.

[creeping-deth87]

Wow, it seems like I’m alone in using this strategy based on the responses. I normally do all fleet on G1 and then pretty much go all tanks/mech after that. In my group Russia usually just cant take it and by the time the Allies show up it’s too late.

When do people normally attack Russia? I find waiting past turn 2 to be dangerous.

[Cow]

I prefer to be at war sooner than later.

[oztea]

Sometimes 2, sometimes 3.

Depends on the game.
But I do always like to be in a position where I can attack on G2, or at least it looks like I can/will….it keeps the allies in suspense.

[ghr2]

@creeping-deth87:

Wow, it seems like I’m alone in using this strategy based on the responses. I normally do all fleet on G1 and then pretty much go all tanks/mech after that. In my group Russia usually just cant take it and by the time the Allies show up it’s too late.

When do people normally attack Russia? I find waiting past turn 2 to be dangerous.

I find attacking any other time besides turn 3 dangerous.  Your stack turn 2 would be too vulnerable, and economically, turn 1 helps russia more than it hurts.  Turn 4 gives the allies too much time on japan or italy before you start threatening russia.  I like turn 3 cause I can have a powerful stack of inf/rtl/mech/tank plow through russia to moscow.  my turn 2 buy can be partially split to make a dd and a sub in order to stop the 125 NO and to kill any pesky subs.

[Guest]

Another option is to strafe Yugo G2 as in this scenario:

G1 build 7 mech, save $2.  Take France, Normandy, Bulgaria, Finland. Sink  z110 with 2 subs and planes.  Sub, cruiser, battleship to z112; transport to z113. Land fighters and tacs in West Germany. All ground units in range go to Hungary.  Hungary fighter to Rome. When taking France lose artillery before mechs. Collect $68 and finish with $70 in hand.  Italy will take South France.

UK decides whether to sink z112 and/or Taranto. If UK sends all naval and air to z112 then no scramble and start making plans for Italy to conquer the world (luftwaffe may sink those UK ships without air cover G2).  Scramble z113 if bomber goes for the transport.  If UK tries to hit both Taranto AND z112 then scramble and consider building transports G2.  If UK attacks just Taranto or neither, sink royal navy G2 or at least the blockers. Consider building carrier out of Normandy.  Sealion possible if royal navy sunk and UK does not build all infantry.

G2 Build 10 transports or 10 tanks and a fighter (or possibly carrier, 7 tanks, 3 mech). Unless sealion looks very good, take East Poland with everything in range.
Strafe Yugo with 1 infantry from Hungary and tanks/mechs from France and retreat to Hungary.
Italy finishes Yugo.

G3 Massive tank/mech force to Baltic states. Finland infantry take Karelia/Vyborg with air support from West Germany if needed (unlikely). Infantry/artillery/air take Belarus and West Ukraine with minimal force.  Reinforce Baltic states, Belarus, West Ukraine with infantry/AA as needed depending on Soviet counterattack potential. Sink UK navy to delay D-Day invasion if you did the carrier in z110 bit. Build infantry/artillery.

G4 Novgorod.  German income now much higher than USSR.  Build infantry/artillery.

Next few turns stack East Poland and Novgorod, trading Belarus & West Ukraine if you can get Russia to waste units liberating them (use AA guns wisely).  Keep infantry/AA in Archangel and/or sub in z125. Soviet income declines as Japan marches across the East.  Eventually they will get too weak to stop you going all in to Belarus, especially if they have been building nothing but infantry.  Smolensk route forces evacuation of Bryansk and full turtle to Moscow. Consider SBR at this point.  Meanwhile strong Italy builds to counter landing force in France.  Stake in the heart is when Japanese fleet sails south to scare India but skips it to help Italy take Egypt instead. :-)

[creeping-deth87]

@ghr2:

@creeping-deth87:

Wow, it seems like I’m alone in using this strategy based on the responses. I normally do all fleet on G1 and then pretty much go all tanks/mech after that. In my group Russia usually just cant take it and by the time the Allies show up it’s too late.

When do people normally attack Russia? I find waiting past turn 2 to be dangerous.

I find attacking any other time besides turn 3 dangerous.  Your stack turn 2 would be too vulnerable, and economically, turn 1 helps russia more than it hurts.  Turn 4 gives the allies too much time on japan or italy before you start threatening russia.  I like turn 3 cause I can have a powerful stack of inf/rtl/mech/tank plow through russia to moscow.  my turn 2 buy can be partially split to make a dd and a sub in order to stop the 125 NO and to kill any pesky subs.

I guess I just have a different meta in my group. Russia doesn’t have enough to counter-attack with on turn 2 usually. I normally grab Karelia, Vyborg, Baltic, Bessarabia, and East Poland and then it just goes from bad to worse for Russia from there.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

I like moves like this but it seems I often get “lucky” dice and end up “winning” so I can’t retreat.

[Noll]

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

I like moves like this but it seems I often get “lucky” dice and end up “winning” so I can’t retreat.

I agree and that’s why I don’t like low luck, it makes your strafes 100% attainable.

[Witt]

I know it puts Germany in a better position to exploit a G2 Barbarossa, but I do not like giving Italy revenue which could go to the stronger partner that is Germany.
I worry myself sick over Italy and having to cover Rome, which is nastily placed in the distant South, not richer North. It means if Rome falls, the Allies collect more revenue. A German Yugoslavia is safer ( on my weak Axis nerves and heart).