I’m just wondering what you guys think about Southern France. It can pay off for Italy as a National Objective, and Italy has enough units in Northern Italy to take it right away. Germany could also take it on turn 1 by sending say 2 mech inf from Western Germany and a tank from Greater Southern Germany and the fighter from Slovakia/Hungary.
Most of the time, for me, this goes to Germany.
1: Italy still gets its NO bonus even if Germany controls it.
2: It allows Germany to produce subs (or in weird situations, other units) in the med.
3: I’d rather the Northern Italy units begin to head directly to Russia instead of going the wrong direction into France.
When I do take Southern France turn 1 as Germany, I do it as a bit of a gamble. 1 or 2 mechs and 2 tanks. I usually don’t send planes, as I’ll want a tac bomber on S. Italy and a Fighter on Tobruk in most games. If we really don’t care about Tobruk, then I’ll send a plane. Diverting land units there, however, can cause abnormally high losses in France proper, so it’s much safer to take Southern France G2. G1 or G2 is a decision based on a talk with Italy/Japan about what kind of game we want to try to play.
And don’t forget that you can move in an Italian AA gun onto S. France on Italy’s turn if you want to protect your fast units there from some French suicides from Normandy.
In my limited experience of 40G I have always seen the advantages of G taking it, particularly given the Med access, but then letting It have it because it is easier, it adds to It’s poor income and also in an attempt to leave more G mechanised units better placed for a G2 Barbarossa.
tes is right that this distracts It units from going east, which is a problem I generally have. That limited can-opening ability probably costs me more delay than any mis-placing of G’s mechanised units. Must try letting G have southern France next time.
I also generally let G have the friendly neutral in the Balkans, which sometimes feels like another mistake.
Germany always.
There was one game where I had a damaged Italian BB at S. France and it was German owned. The UK player sbr’ed the harbour, preventing me from repairing my BB and using the harbour to move from there to Egypt SZ. So that might another downside to taking it with Germany, along with the weakened attack on France and the fact that the French med fleet can convoy damage your PUs, unlike with Normandy where you’re guaranteed the 2 PUs.
Generally speaking though, I also don’t like diverting Italian ground forces to take S. France, so I almost always launch an attack against it on G1. Once I retreated after killing one unit and then moved in and inf and art to take it with Italy. But in general, I take it with Germany and keep it. Having the option to build german boats in the med is always good.
I like giving Germany Southern France, Yugo, and Greece. Lots of options to go heavy Med if needed later on.
Rich Germany is good. And Southern France gives Germany a factory in the Med. But I have Italy take it just as often as Germany because sometimes Germany is stretched too thin to take it on G2, or sometimes Italy needs to take it I1/2 so Germany can land planes there G2/3.
Germany always just because its gives me the option of dropping naval units in the Med and even a makeshift Afrika Korps if it calls for it. Better to have Italy support the Russian front and send those units into Egypt and Middle east where most of it’s NOs are at anyways.
I think if Germany gets Southern France then Italy should get the Balkans or the other way and the reason is that if GB hits Italy hard R1 its hard for them to rebuild if Germany takes all the money in Europe. Then your left with a puny Italy and it can barely do but help little in russia. So my question is if you like Germany taking Southern France then how much are you leaving Italy for in the Balkans?
I would say 3 ipc is good enough for them.
@Shin:
I like giving Germany Southern France, Yugo, and Greece. Lots of options to go heavy Med if needed later on.
I share this philosophy. Italy is too small to spread out and take a bunch of territories. I’d rather let Germany take those and have Italy focus hard on one or two objectives.
One thing I do from time to time, if the board allows it, is drop guys in Syria and back it up with a couple of German planes. Throws the Allies off if Italy is sitting next to Iraq after one turn
I like to take Southern France with the Germans on G2. I also like to strafe Yugoslavia with the Germans from Southern Germany and Romania in the first round and then retreat all of the forces to Romania. It weakens the Yugo’s and moves the German forces all into a better position to hit the Soviets. The weakened Yugo’s will fall alot easier to the Italians in Italy’s first round. That makes it possible to activate the Bulgarians for the Italians and sets them up for the invasion of Greece by Italy round two. Germany can build u-bouts in the med and a transport with a few ground units to head for Egypt to secure an objective once the Italians have it. It may take a couple of rounds but German Southern France has proven to be a better use of the facility and the Italians in the Balkens gives them money to work with and is moving them in the direction of the Soviet Union or the Middle East.
Italy always, saves precious Germans for other fronts.
Germany, allways if possible.
Italy for a couple of reasons:
G1 stretches France attack/pulls troops away from Russia. (for a G2, my preferred DoW round)
G2 delays collecting the IPCs for a round/delays remaining French task force another round.
Italian slow units don’t have much better places to go.
I haven’t experimented with German Med naval strats at all, so I could be missing something, but it’s worked out fine for me.
German naval in the Med is a lot of fun so I usually take S. France with 4 Mechs. It can help Italy get to 20+ IPCs pretty quick. That gives the Axis some good options, including sending troops to Russia. Last time I played Germany, the battle for Moscow was close - Russia barely defeated my German stacks. Italy had just enough to follow-up the attack and won it with only 1 tank remaining!
Italian slow units don’t have much better places to go.
About those Northern Italians that are “too slow”:
On I6 they can do a suicide strike onto Moscow, where killing even 5 units can swing the battle heavily for the Germans on G7 (Note: G7 is a turn before the potential 12 east ruskies + 2 AA can get to Moscow) Moreover, on I5, the Italians can take Bryansk so German air can land on it to reinforce the stack on G6. If Russia wants to put enough units to dissuade the Italians from being able to take Bryansk, great! That’s a ton of Russians the Germans get to kill that won’t be in Moscow on the next turn.
The help Italy can provide on both I5 and I6 can be crucial.
So yes, the Northern Italians, even though they don’t move more than one territory per turn, can clearly help facilitate a victory in Russia, by letting Germany have a better than 50/50 chance of a G7 Moscow. If Moscow is too strong, probably due to British/American air reinforcements, the Italians stay and sit on the Axis stack to keep it safe while some German fast units break south for the Caucasus/Volgograd cash.
In short, I fundamentally disagree with you and your statement.
@cb4
4 mechs and surely some air ? I’ve gone two tanks and mechs w/no air. 4 mechs and air might be better but messes up my air positioning.
I like Italy take Southen France but i think it depends on who Yugoslavia gets and what the UK player does
As germany i like to give Yugo to the Italians so i try to kill 3-4 Yugo’s and retreat to Romania. If this succeeds i take Bulgaria during NCM with Germany and take the 4 infantry. Turn 2 i can attack Greece with Germany using 5 inf. and 3 tanks. This way Italy can take Yugo turn 1 with 2 inf and 1 tank from Albania and 1 tank from Nothern Italy.
If i kill all 5 in Yugo and take it with Germany then Italy gets Bulgaria and Italay can take Greece turn 2. Germany then gets Southern France turn 2 in most cases…
I never take Southern France als Germany turn 1. I need all my ground troops in France so i don’t lose too much untis taking it (i won’t send plans because of te AAA). Somtimes i take both Normandy and France turn 1.
Who takes Southern France (Ger/It) is also depending on what the UK does turn 1, in most cases: sz. 97 (Taranto), sz 96 and Tobruk. If the UK player takes out sz 97, 96 and Tobruk then i attack the French Navy in sz 93 with my fleet in 95 and my bomber. I also take 2 inf. from Southern Italy with my transport and drop them in Southern France with 2 inf. and 2 art. from Northern Italy. Depending on how strong the UK player is Africa, i can reinforce Africa turn 2 using my transport and landing my fighters in Lybia.
Sometimes if the UK does not attack Tobruk and Germany does not havo Yugo, i still take Southern France as well als Yugo with Italy. In this case i will send my fighters to Tobruk as well as the forces in Lybia. During G2 the Luftwaffe mops up any left over British ships in sz 97 and 96 and land planes in Tobruk. On It2 you can attack Alexandria from Tobruk. Take your fleet and your transport to sz 98 (you own the naval base and if sz 98 its empty you can bombard with your cruiser). If Egypt is empty or weak you can even take both Egypt and Alexandria using your transport and air in Egypt. This way you collect up to 2 NO’s for Italy on It 2. This way Italy is collecting at least 18 and up to 27 IPC’s turn 2.
If Italy takes Southern France you can still built a factory in Yugo or Greece as Germany. This way you can still help the Italians with troops in the middele East/Africa and you can build navy.
I think that it’s Germany’s job to help the Italians in the med early in the game. Italy can be helpfull to the Germans and the defence of the mainland if it collects 25+ IPC’s. The only way Italy can be rich is by NO’s so they need Germany’s help. Germany also has NO in Egypt and the Middele east. If the Brits buy a factory in Egypt and/or Persia it might be difficult but it’s worth to try. Also: as long as the Italians are threatning Africa and/or the middle east, Britain wil build Units in South Africa of in Persia or Egypt (using a new factory). This way they can’t defend London (Sealion) and can build up forces against Germany.
This strategy works perfect for me. I almost never send Italians into Russia except for Caucasus from the south:)
One game I played recently, Axis declined to take either Normandy or Southern France at all, which ended up being very significant later on as these factories couldn’t be used by the US or UK in the counter-invasion. It was an interesting trade-off, 5 IPC a turn sacrificed for ~5-6 turns, and in exchange those factories were useless to the Allies later on, which turned out to be fairly critical to the game’s outcome.
There are times where I see people not taking Normandy. I’ve tried a couple of times, too. It probably was slightly beneficial once, and the other time the Axis won but not because of that.
Not taking Southern France, though?
Southern France touches Northern Italy and is in easy striking range for the Italians to push out would-be invaders unless the landing force is pretty large. That and the Allies have to get through any hindrances on Gibraltar or a SZ 92 Italian DD block (assuming ANZAC didn’t fly a strat bomber over). I think not taking Southern France might be overly cautious, no? And it takes away Germany’s option of building in the Med. Even if Germany doesn’t exercise that ability in 9/10 games, it’s still nice to have it as an option?
Losing 2 IPCs/turn, okay. Losing a total of 5? That’s a pretty big deal.
edit-
And leaving 4 Frenchies around that can all throw 2’s on attack or defense is also possibly a pain, especially if they finagle their fighter into the mix somehow when the European Axis are spread thin (like on rounds 3 and 4).
Elk, was your game on this site? I’d like to see it if so.
