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I always find it fascinating how in a game that does involve luck in quite a substantial way, some players are still so consistently strong and come out top of the league year in year out.

gamerman01 · Jul 28, 2023, 5:12 PM

@MrRoboto said in Post League Game Results Here:

I always find it fascinating how in a game that does involve luck in quite a substantial way, some players are still so consistently strong and come out top of the league year in year out.

JWW used to say that.

Strategy/skill/experience/tactics, not blundering, and ability to adapt, like to bad dice, is much more influential than dice in G40 A&A. I think was true of AA50, too. Did I mention the psychological warfare, and imposition of will? Even speed of play can affect.

Consider - Every move in Monopoly except whether to get out of jail by paying money or using a card, is determined by dice or random cards. The entire path of your token for the entire game is pre-determined and you make decisions based on that. Yet with such a big role for dice, a better and more experienced player will rarely lose to an average or casual player.

gamerman01 · Jul 28, 2023, 5:14 PM

@Martin said in Post League Game Results Here:

L23 Martin X vs FlyingBadger L+22 BM4 Playoffs

FlyingBadger over Martin

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/39632/l23-martin-x-vs-flyingbadger-l-22-bm4-playoffs

Yay! Cat gets to start his first playoff game!

Martin · Jul 28, 2023, 6:18 PM

@gamerman01 hopefully we can avoid any byes, next year, so all participants will be busy.

gamerman01 · Jul 28, 2023, 6:28 PM

That’s the downside, but Cat and Avner only have to win 2 games to be champion, and that is from earning the top spots in the bracket!

All depends on who signs up. 2nd Balanced Mod was the only one with 2 byes this year.

Who will come out of the Sovietishcat/badger battle royale?

gamerman01 · Jul 28, 2023, 6:29 PM

@gamerman01 said in Post League Game Results Here:

@MrRoboto said in Post League Game Results Here:

I always find it fascinating how in a game that does involve luck in quite a substantial way, some players are still so consistently strong and come out top of the league year in year out.

JWW used to say that.

Strategy/skill/experience/tactics, not blundering, and ability to adapt, like to bad dice, is much more influential than dice in G40 A&A. I think was true of AA50, too. Did I mention the psychological warfare, and imposition of will? Even speed of play can affect.

Consider - Every move in Monopoly except whether to get out of jail by paying money or using a card, is determined by dice or random cards. The entire path of your token for the entire game is pre-determined and you make decisions based on that. Yet with such a big role for dice, a better and more experienced player will rarely lose to an average or casual player.

I’m hoping for comments to this one. Other game or any other contest examples?

Karl7 · Jul 28, 2023, 6:39 PM

@gamerman01 said in Post League Game Results Here:

@gamerman01 said in Post League Game Results Here:

@MrRoboto said in Post League Game Results Here:

I always find it fascinating how in a game that does involve luck in quite a substantial way, some players are still so consistently strong and come out top of the league year in year out.

JWW used to say that.

Strategy/skill/experience/tactics, not blundering, and ability to adapt, like to bad dice, is much more influential than dice in G40 A&A. I think was true of AA50, too. Did I mention the psychological warfare, and imposition of will? Even speed of play can affect.

Consider - Every move in Monopoly except whether to get out of jail by paying money or using a card, is determined by dice or random cards. The entire path of your token for the entire game is pre-determined and you make decisions based on that. Yet with such a big role for dice, a better and more experienced player will rarely lose to an average or casual player.

I’m hoping for comments to this one. Other game or any other contest examples?

I’ll bite…

I’d say G40 can be as Gamer says, but also the opposite. If you are playing a tight game, 1 bad roll can sink you. You miscalc your allied main fleet defense off Gib by say 10% and Germany swoops down on a 80%+ hit and you get rocked… night night…

I always say G40 and its derivatives are somewhat unforgiving. Yes you can recover from bad dice if you are the better player, but in even matches if one side gets rocked by dice, hard to come back. Especially for allies as they need almost 4x the amount of stuff to stop the Axis. Often Allies are forced to push moves where they dangle a possible 60-70% Axis win, but have to do it to keep the pressure on. If the Axis bite and win big, bad news. Of course 30-40% chance Axis lose big too…

LennardF · Jul 28, 2023, 6:53 PM

@Karl7 I agree with this.

My own bit would be that if I think I’m intellectually/experience/whatever behind in a game then I will lean into aggression. The easiest example of this is Texas Hold’Em where you can call a flop all in on aces and still lose. In this situation the more aggressive player in this case vacuums up wins against a stronger player who is momentarily losing a war of attrition while they wait for the moment for the odds to be in their favor. If/when they get their moment they still need to not get “out-lucked”.

MrRoboto · Aug 8, 2023, 3:37 PM

I think Monopoly is a bad example for two reasons:

That game is notoriously bad designed and much more luck dependent. The “skill” involved comes down to 2-3 ground rules, knowing the event cards and knowing the field values (very easy to learn). An extremely experienced player can be beaten at any time by a 10-year-old.
It involves psychology. Auctions work fundamentally different on a mechanical level. If someone is a very charismatic player, he or she may persuade others to make worse choices.

When there is a skill / Experience difference, the better player can overcome dice deviations from the average. Whenever I play someone better than me, my opponent manages not to give me any chances for a big gamble. They maneuver their units in such a way, that I have maybe a 15% chance to attack somewhere - which would make no sense for me to do. Thus, they avoid many chances for dice hitting them in the face.

However, at same skill level, dice can play a crucial role and have led me to take a break from the game because it can be super frustrating. I also recognize I had my fair share of wins against evenly skilled players due to dice, which actually also feels hollow.

farmboy · Jul 29, 2023, 12:52 AM

@gamerman01 Adam defeats farmboy (allies +21) as usual

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/40025/l23-bm4-adam514-axis-vs-farmboy-allies-21?_=1690577260714

simon33 · Aug 8, 2023, 3:18 PM

Sovietishcat (Allies+16) vs Simon33 (Axis) BM

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/40028/sovietishcat-allies-16-vs-simon33-x-bm/103?page=5

Will have to review this one. I don’t understand how USSR got too strong for Germany.

gamerman01 · Aug 8, 2023, 3:47 PM

@MrRoboto said in Post League Game Results Here:

I think Monopoly is a bad example for two reasons:

That game is notoriously bad designed and much more luck dependent. The “skill” involved comes down to 2-3 ground rules, knowing the event cards and knowing the field values (very easy to learn). An extremely experienced player can be beaten at any time by a 10-year-old.

It involves psychology. Auctions work fundamentally different on a mechanical level. If someone is a very charismatic player, he or she may persuade others to make worse choices.

When there is a skill / Experience difference, the better player can overcome dice deviations from the average. Whenever I play someone better than me, my opponent manages not to give me any chances for a big gamble. They maneuver their units in such a way, that I have maybe a 15% chance to attack somewhere - which would make no sense for me to do. Thus, they avoid many chances for dice hitting them in the face.

However, at same skill level, dice can play a crucial role and have led me to take a break from the game because it can be super frustrating. I also recognize I had my fair share of wins against evenly skilled players due to dice, which actually also feels hollow.

I don’t remember reading this but I gave it a heart.
I enjoy the thoughts. I think both Monopoly and Axis and Allies are more nuanced than you described. I win 2 player games by auction savvy. There is also skill in deciding when to build houses or tear them down. In a 2 player game, you don’t worry about the other player making deals with others and not you. There are a lot of decisions if you think about it.

A&A, oh my. Now this is my wheelhouse. It is not smart to give 15% odds in all instances until you are sure you are going to win. Even then, only giving 15% odds will help the other player start to get back in the game. We’re about to play our first game. I look forward to taking you to school. :innocent: :muscle:

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