Medium Luck Combat System

[General 6 Stars]

OK. So color is just for matching dice to a certain amount of pieces. Kinda got it. But how does a plane get to boost a destroyer or sub or I missing something here. Or maybe I just don’t get the boost dice and casualty columns.

Will have to test in d6 and d12.

[Argothair]

@general-6-stars Hello there!

So, thematically, the idea of planes boosting destroyers is that they’re helping you hunt for submarines – the planes fly over the region and look for periscopes, and then when they find one, they radio the location to the destroyers, which then sail over and drop their depth charges. A fighter plane by itself can’t really do much to hurt a fleet of submarines, but your fighters increase the effectiveness of your destroyers.

Mechanically, the way that works is that if you have, e.g., 4 destroyers hunting for subs, then you roll 2 green dice. If you have 4 destroyers and 1 fighter hunting for subs, you roll 2 green dice and increase one of those dice by +1. If you have 4 destroyers and 2 fighters hunting for subs, you roll 2 green dice and increase both of them by +1. The examples below show how that plays out if you happen to roll a 5 and a 3 on your green dice.

• With 4 DD, 0 ftr: [5, 3] --> [5, 3]
• With 4 DD, 1 ftr: [5, 3] --> [6, 3]
• With 4 DD, 2 ftr: [5, 3] --> [6, 4].

You could play with d12’s instead of d6’s if you want to, but the effect would be that boosting becomes less important relative to just having lots of the main units for each color. That would tend to weaken cruisers, AAA guns, mech. inf., and artillery relative to the other pieces. It would also make it somewhat harder to hunt down submarines.

[General 6 Stars]

@argothair said in [Medium Luck Combat System]

So, thematically, the idea of planes boosting destroyers is that they’re helping you hunt
You could play with d12’s instead of d6’s if you want to, but the effect would be that boosting becomes less important relative to just having lots of the main units for each color. That would tend to weaken cruisers, AAA guns, mech. inf., and artillery relative to the other pieces. It would also make it somewhat harder to hunt down submarines.

I’ll find away since I do have been using this. Not to derail your thread here.

I’m at the moment testing my advanced 42 game. Could try there D6.

[General 6 Stars]

So is periscope depth the same as surface ? Technically you have 3 depths for subs. Not trying to be an ass here.
Can a sub dive from periscope depth if a plane finds it ?
Your probably saying the sub is not surfaced so it can dive and then destroyer can still hit it whether its periscope depth or dive depth.

I play tacs can first strike subs whether surfaced or periscope depth and if they miss, the sub can dive and if destroyers present can do a depth charge drop. But only time a fig can find a sub is on defense and at periscope depth or surfaced based on a sub can dive whether destroyer present or not. But of course I’m probably going off topic if this is just for g40. Just puttin out ideas.

AS far as weakened units I do have aa guns for BB and CR plus the dog fighting going on same time. No need for boosting.
I’ll have to test a ton of piece combo battles and see how your stuff works.

[Argothair]

@general-6-stars Sounds like you’ve got a few different “modes” for your submarines, which is cool, but yeah, that’s not what’s going on here in this system. This system assumes submarines are always at about the same depth and treats all submarines alike.

Thanks for testing; I’ll be curious to see what you discover!

[General 6 Stars]

Ok. lets see if I got this battle right.
Attacker
3 figs 1 yellow
3 tanks 1 red
4 Inf 2 white
2 art +1 to each white dice
1 mech +1 to red dice

Defender
2 tanks 1 red
2 art +1 to each white dice
5 inf 2 white dice

Attacker rolls in order
Yellow - 4
Red - 6 +1 =7 pick
White - 1 +1 = 2
White - 3 + 1 = 4 so it be
4, 7p, 2, 4

Defender rolls in order
Red - 6 pick
White - 1 + 1 = 2
White - 3 +1 = 4 so be
6p, 2, 4

4-6p, 7p-2, 2-4 and attacker kills with the last 4.

Casualties be
Attacker and defender have 2 casualties each with both sides getting to pick a piece based on tank hits.

If this is correct then at end of battle there is for the attacker 9 casualties and 8 casualties for the defender.
Attacker had left 1 fig, 1 tank and 2 inf.
Seems like you need to keep inf more for future battles and get a less costly buy for that 1 extra dice.

1. Confusing at start.
2. Takes to long to do a battle.
3. Kind a weird at first picking casualties.
4. Tanks and figs not a big factor now.
5. Seems art and mechs go first based on number of
   inf to keep that extra dice instead a +1.

If you have 2 white dice with only 1 being boosted, do you have to pick what dice gets +1 before you roll them dice ?

I’m assuming with 3 carriers gets 1 dice +1 based on AAA guns on carriers make believing.

[General 6 Stars]

Naval
Attacker
4 figs rolls 4,6
2 Car rolls 3
1 BB rolls 7
2 CR rolls 2
3 DD rolls 3
4, 6, 3, 7, 2, 3

Defender
2 figs roll 4
1 Car rolls 2
2 BB rolls 6,2
1 CR rolls 4
3 DD rolls 5
4, 2, 6, 2, 4, 5

4-4, 6-2, 3-6, 7-2, 2-4, 3-5

Attacker has 4 casualties and defender 3 casualties.

It was easier to just place the dice in order with a colored chip next to the dice that got +1 for me anyway. Just used chart in order by piece.

[Argothair]

@general-6-stars I’m really glad you tested this out, because it gives me a chance to explain more carefully what I intended!

Dice should only be compared within each color, not between colors.

So for the land battle, attacker has 3 fighters, which could roll 1 yellow die – but the defender doesn’t have any planes, and yellow dice can only hit planes, so there’s no point in rolling the yellow die. Instead, it would be better to assign the planes to boost the attacking infantry.

Attacker has 3 tanks, so rolls 1 red die, and boosts it by +1 because of the mech. infantry. You had the attacker rolling a 6, so the attacker is showing a 6 + 1 = 7 on his red die. The defender also rolled a 6, but has nothing to boost it with. The attacker’s 7 beats the defender’s 6, so the attacker gets to inflict one casualty on the defender, and the attacker gets to choose who dies. In this case I would suggest choosing the artillery, since the artillery has not fired yet and the artillery is more immediately useful than the second defending tank.

Next up is white dice. As you correctly figured out, the attacker rolls 2 white dice and boosts each of them by +1 for the supporting artillery. The attacker can also boost each die +1 for the supporting fighters. With both artillery support and air support, the white dice each get +2. You rolled a 2 and a 4, so that becomes a 4 and a 6.

The defender also rolls 2 white dice, only one of which gets boosted (because the other artillery got killed by the attacking tank). The boost is only +1, because the defender only has artillery support, not air support. Defender rolls a 2 and a 4. The defender can choose which die to boost, but it doesn’t really matter; you get the same results either way. Let’s say they boost the 4, so defenders’ rolls are a 2 and a 5.

The attacker’s 6 beats the defender’s 5, and the attacker’s 4 beats the defender’s 2. The defender has to take two casualties. They can choose which casualties to take. I’d suggest taking 1 infantry and 1 tank, because taking 2 infantry would cost the defender a white die in the next round of combat, since the defender would then only have 3 infantry left.

So, total casualties from the first round are zero for the attacker, and 1 inf, 1 art, 1 tnk for the defender. The tanks and planes didn’t roll very many dice directly, but because the attacker had better support from stuff like tanks and planes, they were able to boost their dice to high numbers, which means that the attacker got much better results in the end.

[General 6 Stars]

OK. so was wondering if it was color to color but not sure. OK thanks for reply. ill have to go back and redo more battles.

I’ll refigure the naval battle. Piece against piece color match. No color on one side then no dice roll.

[General 6 Stars]

@general-6-stars said in Medium Luck Combat System:

Naval
Attacker
4 figs rolls 4, 6
2 Car rolls 3
1 BB rolls 7 6 + 1 for tac + 7
2 CR rolls 2
3 DD rolls 3

Defender
2 figs roll 4
1 Car rolls 2
2 BB rolls 6
1 CR rolls 4
3 DD rolls 5

OK Redid the naval battle.
3 casualties for each side.

Attacker Defender
2 figs 4,6 fig hit ---- 1 fig 4 throw 6 out 1 fig hit (4-4)
2 AC 3 ---- 1 AC 2 AC hit (3-2)
1 BB 7 ---- 2 BB 6 BB hit (7-6)
2 CR 2 CR hit ---- 1 CR 4 (2-4)
3 DD 3 DD hit ---- 3 DD 5 (3-5)

Crap won’t space out.

[vodot]

@argothair Wow man, I love this. I can’t imagine trying to sell this to the A&A community because it’s so crunchy compared to the A&A system, but I love the choices and tradeoffs that have to be considered and made. It looks to me like you’ve basically invented a way of abstracting force disposition and combined arms without setting up an individual unit targeting/class system or a tactical map. Pretty sweet.

I have some questions:

1. Is your vision that both sides would choose their dispersion of forces ‘blind’ and then simultaneously reveal, or is there some kind of give and take or progression e.g. one row at a time?
2. What about units in in excess of the six-die limit to each band? Would they need to be
   “pre-allotted”, automatically moving up to take the place of losses, or could they be conceived of as “reserves” that can be dynamically allocated after seeing your opponent’s disposition or after losses?
3. Do you have any analysis on the relative power of each band?
4. This would fairly dramatically alter the attacker/defender balance, since units no longer roll with any attack/defense values (or any “values” at all, for that matter). Have you given thought for compensating the defender for this loss of strength?

[Argothair]

@vodot Great questions, as always. And yeah, like you said, it’s a tough sell – but I don’t think it’s that much crazier than BBR combat rules. When you add up the rules for submarines’ special abilities, for the way they get cancelled by destroyers, the various bonuses you get for having different types of pieces together, e.g., fighters + tac, or tac + tank, some of the stuff people are playing with already is pretty complicated. This system has kind of a minimum amount of crunchiness that you have to be prepared to swallow or you can’t play it at all, but once you digest that, there aren’t a ton of extra rules.

1. I think it probably makes sense for the attacker to dispose all their forces first, all at once, followed by the defender.

2. I’d be very open to the idea of a ‘reserve’ pool. You can place units in reserve at the start of battle instead of putting them in one of the color rows. You can do this regardless of whether you’re over the six-die limit or not. At the start of each round of combat other than round 1, you can move as many units as you like from reserves to one or more particular color(s). Once they’re deployed to a color, they stay there for the rest of the battle or until they’re dead. Thanks for the suggestion. :)

3. My design goal in terms of the relative power of each band is that the relative power will be almost 100% situational. If you’re attacking with a small group of infantry and a large stack of bombers, then the yellow band becomes much more important for the defenders, because air power can sweep your bombers off the field. On the other hand, if you’re engaging at sea with mostly battleships and destroyers, then the yellow band is not very important and you might struggle to find a use for your fighters. The red band is normally very important in land combat because it’s the only band that allows you to eliminate units of your choice, so you can pick off enemy tanks or planes, which simulates a blitzkrieg that gets behind enemy lines and disrupts HQ areas. However, if you’re fighting a stack of 20 infantry with no heavy weaponry, then choosing your casualties is much less important – although it’s still marginally useful to have some tank support, because the red casualties get eliminated before the white dice can fire, and because your first tank gets a whole die to itself, whereas you might need 3 more infantry to get an additional white die, or you might be capped on white dice if your infantry stack is large enough.

4. The defender gets an extra white die in every combat, which matters a lot in small battles. The attacker also has to dispose their forces first, which can create a tactical advantage for the defender. In very large battles like Kursk, Stalingrad, Normandy, Midway, etc., it’s difficult to say that there was a defender – both sides historically launched dozens of attacks and counterattacks over the course of what would be considered “one battle” in A&A game terms. One effect that bothers me is that the defender in a closely contested front will typically have no air support at all – you can’t land fighters in a newly conquered territory, and under my system an AAA gun is only useful to boost the power of fighters. One way to handle this is to allow fighters to intercept from an air base to any neighboring battle, whether that battle involves an amphibious assault or not. Another is to say that you can land, say, 2 planes in a newly conquered territory, representing your first couple of rough airfields that your engineers throw together there.

[General 6 Stars]

So what makes the BBR so complicated ?
Seems this system is getting more complicated by adding more stuff your discussing.

[Argothair]

@general-6-stars It’s mostly a matter of perspective. If you’re used to playing BBR or G36 or G40, then of course they’ll seem natural to you.

If you’re not used to those games, then learning that each AA gun rolls up to 3 dice, but only in the first round of combat, and only up to the total number of attacking planes, and they can only hit planes, whereas strategic bombers roll 2 dice that hit at 2, but only in the first round of combat, and they can hit anything, and tactical bombers attack at a 3 unless they’re paired with a fighter or tank, in which case they attack at a 4, but they always defend at 3, even if they’re paired up, whereas fighters always attack at 3 and defend at 4…is a mouthful and a lot to keep track of.

It’s not obvious to me that this is easier than putting your pieces in a colored band and then rolling 1 die for every 3 pieces in that band. It’s just that the BBR rules are more familiar.

[General 6 Stars]

Well for me boosting other pieces can get crazy out of hand. As I mentioned before my system is not quite like those games as I posted chart in above post.

I just don’t agree here on a few pieces not being able to get a shot. Plus who’s to say my battleship is shooting at a destroyer and not another battleship and vice versa or its aa guns are also trying to kill a plane. IMO.

OK I’ll bow out of this topic. Don’t want to jam it up for you guys. Take care.