RULE CLARIFICATION: Italy DOWs Moves to E. Poland - Germany Moves Doesn't DOW

@Requester45:

@Leatherneckinlv:

How do you figure that shadow hawk? I totally disagree with you

Now question to all…situations like this how do youse resolve it during a game?

In these kind of situations mid game, and the person that I am playing against disagrees and or I disagree with him, we roll for it. Usually 123 it sticks 456 it is no good.

That’s fine for you guys but I got to have the correct rule. :wink:

You can also look at “Declaring War” on page 12 of the European rule book where it specifically says… “if Germany declares war on the United States, the United States is immediately at war with Germany, but it must wait until its turn to declare war on Italy.” In this situation the Soviet Union would need to wait to declare war on Germany until its following turn, meaning Germany is not at war and does not declare war on the Soviet Union on its turn, thus gaining the 5 IPC bonus. Germany moving units into an Italian controlled territory does not constitute a state of war between them and the Soviet Union. This is backed by the fact that the Soviet Union is no longer considered a neutral power.
I do not agree with this, and I will not be playing the game this way, however I do believe that if you are the type to go word for word, then I couldn’t disagree with you. I feel that it doesn’t violate the rules of the game but it violates the spirit of the game.

Why Germany can move units into an Italian controlled East-Poland and collect the NO for not being at war with Russia:

@rulebook:

Noncombat Move
Where Units Can Move
Land Units: A land unit can move into any friendly or
friendly neutral territory, including territories that were
captured in the current turn. It can’t move into or through
a hostile territory (not even one that contains no combat
units but is enemy-controlled) or an unfriendly neutral
or strict neutral territory. If your power isn’t at war, you
can’t move your units into territories belonging to another
friendly power or a friendly neutral.

or

@rulebook:

Noncombat Move
Where Units Can Move
Land Units: A land unit can move into any friendly or friendly
neutral territory, including territories that were captured in the
current turn. It can’t move into or through a hostile territory
(not even one that contains no combat units but is enemy-
controlled) or an unfriendly neutral or strict neutral territory.

Germany is at war (with England …), the territory in question is friendly, because it is Italian. Italy is at war with Russia, but Germany isn’t. So Germany collects the extra income.

The rules concerning a neutral Russia do not apply, as Russia, being at war with Italy, is no longer neutral - not being at war with Germany, as ShadowHAwk correctly pointed out.

@P@nther:

Why Germany can move units into an Italian controlled East-Poland and collect the NO for not being at war with Russia:

@rulebook:

Noncombat Move
Where Units Can Move
Land Units: A land unit can move into any friendly or
friendly neutral territory, including territories that were
captured in the current turn. It can’t move into or through
a hostile territory (not even one that contains no combat
units but is enemy-controlled) or an unfriendly neutral
or strict neutral territory. If your power isn’t at war, you
can’t move your units into territories belonging to another
friendly power or a friendly neutral.

or

@rulebook:

Noncombat Move
Where Units Can Move
Land Units: A land unit can move into any friendly or friendly
neutral territory, including territories that were captured in the
current turn. It can’t move into or through a hostile territory
(not even one that contains no combat units but is enemy-
controlled) or an unfriendly neutral or strict neutral territory.

Germany is at war (with England …), the territory in question is friendly, because it is Italian. Italy is at war with Russia, but Germany isn’t. So Germany collects the extra income.

The rules concerning a neutral Russia do not apply, as Russia, being at war with Italy, is no longer neutral - not being at war with Germany, as ShadowHAwk correctly pointed out.

Thanks P@nther

Yes thank you Panther. You gave the best clarification of the rule that made it easy to understand.
Here is the video that I made. You might find the rule book discrepancy interesting and informative;
https://youtu.be/7sHeisB8kUQ

I have also found that Russia would have to declare war on Germany when it became their turn in order to attack the territory that Italy owned. If Russia does not declare war on Germany, they cannot attack the territory that contains both German and Italian movements. This can be found on page 15 of the Europe rule book under “Powers Not at War with One Another.” It specifically says “A power can’t attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war. If a power at war attacks a sea zone containing units belonging to both a power with which it’s already at war and a power with which it’s not at war, the latter powers units are ignored.”
So as you can see, without a declaration of war by the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union cannot attack any territory containing German units with the exception of sea zones. This would also open the door for a deeper push into Soviet territories on the following turn by both Italian and German units, in which Germany would then again collect 5 IPC bonus for not being at war with the Soviet Union. This makes it extremely important for the Soviet player to declare war on Germany ASAP.

@GeneralHandGrenade:

Yes thank you Panther. You gave the best clarification of the rule that made it easy to understand.
Here is the video that I made. You might find the rule book discrepancy interesting and informative;
https://youtu.be/7sHeisB8kUQ

@GeneralHandGrenade
Interesting video, well elaborated. Thanks.

@all
Please be sure to have the latest rulesets to avoid misunderstandings as described in the video, please see
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28562.msg1540640#msg1540640
and
http://avalonhill.wizards.com/rules

@GeneralHandGrenade:

You might find the rule book discrepancy interesting and informative;

There is actually no discrepancy between the two rulebooks on this point.  As P@nther pointed out, the rule you quoted earlier from the Pacific rulebook applies only to the United States while it is neutral (it’s the only power that can be in that game).  The same restrictions apply to neutral powers in the Europe game (see page 15 of the Europe rulebook).  Since the USSR is no longer neutral in the case in question (being at war with Italy), the rule you quoted doesn’t apply.

By the way, I noticed in your video that you used the term “neutral with Germany” as regards to the USSR.  This is incorrect, as “neutral” is actually an absolute term which means that a power is not at war with anyone.  In the situation we’re discussing here, the USSR is at war with Italy and not at war with Germany.  It is no longer neutral because it’s at war with at least one power, so any rule regarding neutrality no longer applies to it, even in relation to power with which it’s not yet at war.  (The situation is a bit more complicated with the USSR, as it’s in the unique position of being able to remain neutral on one side of the map while no longer being neutral on the other, but the general principle still applies on each map.)  Viewing the situation in this light may make things more clear.

Thank you for the clarification, Krieghund. I see what you mean by that now.

Great discussion, thanks everyone.

I agree with YG. I myself learned two important things today:

• that this italian can opener into Russia is legal

• thanks to GHG’s youtube contribution that I should definitely check the FAQ on the forums as I have two first print second edition rule books

Wow, guess it pays to read the forum.

Just to clarify, does this space have to be E. Poland for some reason, or can the Italians attack and can open any Russian Territories?  (bessabaria etc eg I3, 4 taking more over…without declaring war…)

No Taamvan. It could be any Soviet territory. E. Poland was used as the example.

Well concerning the rule in question it all seems sound and I agree with it.

That being said. How does it actually effect the game?

By going down this path you have done a few things.

#1 You have forced a G4 attack from Germany into Russia. (Germany is staging their forces in G3 to take advantage of the Italian moves on I2)
#2 You have freed up Russia on R3 to move into the middle East to take Iraq. (They are no longer Neutral)
#3 Before the main attack from Germany comes storming in, Russia has had 3 full build turns. (Tipped your hand to Russia if you stage is Besarabia to go the southern route)

The main advantage of this plan IMO, is that Italy takes Besarabia.  Besarabia is the key Territory to move into Southern Russia. It allows the Germans if they can stage into that territory one step closer with their INF, that is a big deal when looking at the tactical situation in Southern Russia. Most players go the northern route when invading Russia because the INF are one territory closer to Leningrad. Germany though wants to go South because of their NO’s but time and spacing of the board makes it harder to go South.

Obviously you can take both Eastern Poland and Besarabia with Italy and then reinforce Eastern Poland with a few German units to prevent the Russian counterattack in R3 against a Italian held territory with no German back up.

NOW

lets just say that on R1 Russia backs off all three border territories. Italy has it set up so they can take advantage on Italy Turn 1. Russia Turn 2 and they do not cover the 3 border territories. Italy on Turn 2 takes all three of them. Baltic States, Eastern Poland and Besarbia. That opens up a huge can of worms for the Germans to exploit on G3 to set up the G4 attack. (What to do in this case is an entire thread unto it self.) (Just checked the OOB Italy set up and they only have 2 tanks with in range of Russia on I2, so the most they can take is two territories and not all 3)

**Note to all Russian players **

DO NOT allow Italian to just walk into all three border territories. Sacrifice 1 INF in each space, take your lumps and make Italy Attack into them. Letting them “walk” in is to great an advantage for the Axis.

If Germany has tipped their hand that they are going all in on Sea Lion, never abandon the border territories and stage forces in them. Totally shut down any plan from Italian forces of taking one of your border territories.

Now if we look at the IPC impact of this move it is basically a wash.

Germany Gets 15 IPC from Russia on G1-3

Russia gets 10 IPC from Lend lease on R3 -4 because they are now at war.

Russia most likely gets Irag on R4 for 5 IPC. (2 for Iraq and 3 for NO’s)

So at the end of Russia turn 4. Germany and Russia have both gotten 15 IPC on NO’s.

**** THE BOTTOM LINE  *****

IF Russia lets italy take Besarabia on I2 with their 2 tanks the Italians need to take it so Germany can reinforce on G3 OR invade themselves and blitz through. Besarabia is the key to this entire plan.

the issue I have then, strictly speaking is this;

1. Italy Dow Russia, combat moves into a Russian territory,
2. germany non combats 1 unit into Italy’s occupied space in Russia,
3. Russia attacks the Italian occupied space…
4. Russia has not declared war on Germany,
5. what happens with the German combat unit?

@happynewyear1945:

the issue I have then, strictly speaking is this;

1. Italy Dow Russia, combat moves into a Russian territory,
2. germany non combats 1 unit into Italy’s occupied space in Russia,
3. Russia attacks the Italian occupied space…
4. Russia has not declared war on Germany,
5. what happens with the German combat unit?

As I previously stated, the rules show that the Soviet Union cannot attack a territory containing a German unit, meaning they wouldn’t be able to attack Italy.

For the specific reference, see the Powers Not at War with One Another box on page 15, Europe rules:
"Combat: A power can’t attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war. "

(note: sea zones work differently than land territories in this regard)

Heres one a lot of people may have a question with
Germany does not DOW. on Russia on R4, but Russia DOW’s on Germany R4. What happens to the neutrals like Turkey, Spain, and Sweden
Tanks

@Requester45:

@happynewyear1945:

the issue I have then, strictly speaking is this;

1. Italy Dow Russia, combat moves into a Russian territory,
2. germany non combats 1 unit into Italy’s occupied space in Russia,
3. Russia attacks the Italian occupied space…
4. Russia has not declared war on Germany,
5. what happens with the German combat unit?

As I previously stated, the rules show that the Soviet Union cannot attack a territory containing a German unit, meaning they wouldn’t be able to attack Italy.

From Page 15,

Combat: A power can’t attack a territory controlled
by or containing units belonging to a power with
which it is not at war

Which i am Aware of;

Page 22

Where Units Can Move
Land Units: A land unit can move into any friendly or
friendly neutral territory, including territories that were
captured in the current turn. It can’t move into or through
a hostile territory (not even one that contains no combat
units but is enemy-controlled) or an unfriendly neutral
or strict neutral territory. If your power isn’t at war, you
can’t move your units into territories belonging to another
friendly power or a friendly neutral.

See above;
It make MORE sense that Germany Cant non combat into Russia when not at war, than for Russia not to be able to attack Italian occupied Territory because Germany has pieces in it.

@suprise:

Heres one a lot of people may have a question with
Germany does not DOW. on Russia on R4, but Russia DOW’s on Germany R4. What happens to the neutrals like Turkey, Spain, and Sweden
Tanks

They stay strict neutrals, a Russian DOW or a DOW from any nation doesn’t effect strict neutrals like Sweden, Turkey, or Spain. Are you getting the Mongolian rule mixed up here?