Why is it a problem that OOB is unbalanced? The bid adds diversity to the game which I think adds spice and therefore fun.
Why is it a problem that OOB is unbalanced? The bid adds diversity to the game which I think adds spice and therefore fun.
Agree. And with thousands of IPC’s worth of stuff on the board, being within 20-40 IPC’s of balanced is very good.
I don’t know, Simon, I just gave up on the subject because quite a few players are just obsessed with the game being “balanced”. Even CHESS isn’t balanced because white goes first and that gives an advantage. :lol:
I think the quest for balance is a noble one. I’m glad you enjoy the variety of a bid system, but it feels like fixing something wrong with the game, to me. I want to chose a side, and play the game. It also reminds me of how I enjoy price tags on items in my country, versus other countries I’ve travelled and lived in require you to haggle for a price. It makes me uncomfortable, but I could see how others might enjoy it.
If you definitely want to pick one particular side, the bid system is certainly problematic. That’s also a problem if both players want the same side though.
I see your point though, saving the back and forth involved in bidding is a nice to have.
Main point of BM is improving the game, not the balance part. Bid is fun.
Main point of BM is improving the game, not the balance part. Bid is fun.
BM mode achieves one very important thing compared to high bid OOB games. Italy. If you get a bid of 40 (and you need at least 40 to have an even chance) and spend it all towards taking out Italy it means Italy is neutered from round 1. That is not so fun.
Just look at the win% this year, BM is not balanced, it still favours Axis with a 54-46 ratio, so feel free to give the British the sz 98 sub
Are Axis wins up to a ratio of 54:46 now?
That’s a 10% spread. Does this meant that people may stop giving a small bid to the Axis?
You would think
Or take the Iwo NO away from Japan lol
Agreed. That NO is totally unnecessary. Japan starts strong enough, without added gifts.
Are Axis wins up to a ratio of 54:46 now?
That’s a 10% spread. Does this meant that people may stop giving a small bid to the Axis?
In a lot of cases this is indeed happening.
Or take the Iwo NO away from Japan lol
Not sure what the big deal about the Iwo Jima/Okinawa objective is. Was it needed? No. Does it damage or improve the game? Neither really.
BM mode achieves one very important thing compared to high bid OOB games. Italy. If you get a bid of 40 (and you need at least 40 to have an even chance) and spend it all towards taking out Italy it means Italy is neutered from round 1. That is not so fun.
Hmm, my Italy achieves very little most games beyond can opening and defense. Perhaps I suck at playing Italy then.
If helping Italy was the main goal of BM, wouldn’t moving the starting position of the SZ95 Cruiser, DD and sub to SZ97 be an obvious move? That makes a maximum attack on SZ97 UK1 a 37% one with a German tac. Perhaps make the sub an additional one because I don’t like the idea that you can put an unescorted TT in SZ91 as the allies. I don’t really understand why there was this requirement to avoid changing the setup.
Main point of BM is improving the game, not the balance part. Bid is fun.
If that’s the case, do you feel that guerilla fighters are a success in improving the game? I’m still a bit frustrated that most league games include this rule TBH.
I still don’t like the USSR lend lease bonus for a Japanese DOW on it either but I can accept that it doesn’t enter the game very often.
Little has changed my initial view of BM even after 114 games played (I just checked).
A lot of good/valid points here simon33.
I agree, I don’t see the need for the IJ objective for Japan either. However, it is not that bad and it is a fairly easy objective for the US to take out. I am not sure if it is worth it for the USA to mess with this as it is easy for Japan to take back. But honestly, I think the med islands objectives are worse. If Taranto is not done, then Italy has a good chance to take all three islands for a gain of +5 for Axis. If Allied controlled it is +6 for the British with a difference of up to 11 IPC. It is BIG trouble for the Allies if Axis gain +5 here. It can’t be ignored, but the problem is you loose sooooooooo much tempo in your play if you are going to protect your transports and re-take those islands with USA/British. I am not sure how to deal with it.
As for Italy, in my playoff game against Wittmann he got a +38 bid for allies and spent it “all†towards Italy. Here is Italys income: 3,18,10,3,5,7 …… single digits……7,8,13(round 16). You never see number like this in BM. I believe this is a good thing about BM. Here is the tread: https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=41972.315 for that game. I am sure helping Italy to become a more playable power is one of the main things the developers wanted to achieve. I think it is very difficult to move units around in the starting set-up and I think it is fair not to mess with that. I did not understand your point with the unescorted TT in sz 91 though.
As for the guerilla fighters I think it is good improvement of the game. It makes it much harder for Japan and it seems like you agree that Axis are still overpowered in BM? If you disallow the guerilla fighters it is not even close to compensate with no IJ objective. Axis will be even more overpowered. I think China is more playable in BM than in OOB.
Then I agree with you about the lend lease and Soviet/Japan relationship. In OOB you can say it is a no-brainer to DOW on Japan with Soviet. In BM I feel it is almost the opposite. It is less need for Soviet help because of the Guerilla fighters though. But I would substitute the lend lease objectives (Persia and Amur) with an objective for holding Novosibirsk, like it is if you play Europe only. I would also keep the original Archangel objective of +5 and I would keep the original DOW rules for Soviet and Japan. The +3 for no allied units is good too. I guess this is the original +5 split up in two (+3 and +2 for Archangel). I also liked the Soviet money for Iraq and Africa. I guess I am the only one.
Little has changed my initial view of BM even after 114 games played (I just checked).
I love it. :-)
I did not understand your point with the unescorted TT in sz 91 though.
I just meant that if UK1 a TT moves to SZ91, the SZ95 Italian sub can attack it. I think that’s a good thing. If you moved the sub from SZ95 to SZ97, it couldn’t reach.
As for the guerilla fighters I think it is good improvement of the game. It makes it much harder for Japan and it seems like you agree that Axis are still overpowered in BM? If you disallow the guerilla fighters it is not even close to compensate with no IJ objective. Axis will be even more overpowered. I think China is more playable in BM than in OOB.
Ok, but isn’t that just an argument about balance?
Then I agree with you about the lend lease and Soviet/Japan relationship. In OOB you can say it is a no-brainer to DOW on Japan with Soviet. In BM I feel it is almost the opposite. It is less need for Soviet help because of the Guerilla fighters though. But I would substitute the lend lease objectives (Persia and Amur) with an objective for holding Novosibirsk, like it is if you play Europe only. I would also keep the original Archangel objective of +5 and I would keep the original DOW rules for Soviet and Japan. The +3 for no allied units is good too. I guess this is the original +5 split up in two (+3 and +2 for Archangel). I also liked the Soviet money for Iraq and Africa. I guess I am the only one.
I’ve noticed a couple of players DOW on Japan USSR1 to allow the Soviets to enter China. But you need a real reason to do this - the idea of keeping peace is pretty appealing.
I like the change to the lend lease but it definitely reduces the incentive to block the lend lease as Germany with only 2IPC at stake.
A couple of minor points I’ve thought about and decided to ventilate them:
BTW, I’m not sure if the last point is easy to achieve in Triple-A.
One other point I’ve wondered about. In lower tier G40 games, the bid is much lower than in the higher tier games where it is normally well above 30. Why is the bid for Balanced Mod normally about the same at the bottom and top tiers? Do top players feel that the allies have an advantage? Here’s some stats:
M level BM games Axis 44-5 Allies 45-14
E level BM games Axis 44-30 Allies 36-31
Looks like an axis advantage to me!
Other figures:
Level 1 BM games Axis 38-40 Allies 29-44
Level 2 BM games Axis 16-34 Allies 11-43
Level 3 BM games Axis 0-11 Allies 5-15
@Ichabod said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
Are Axis wins up to a ratio of 54:46 now?
That’s a 10% spread. Does this meant that people may stop giving a small bid to the Axis?
55:45 now.
@MrRoboto said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
The Guerilla fighters in China work similarly: While in 2nd edition, Axis players usually throw everything asap against India, in BM you’d be punished by spawning Chinese fighters, if you move too many of your troops to India.
I didn’t say this before but I disagree with this point. The guerilla fighters provide increased incentive to go after India ASAP - just avoid taking unnecessary Chinese territory and they don’t trouble you much if at all.
I’m also unsure about the reduction in the IPC value of the Burma Road from 6 to 3. China fights on for a while with only a few territories with the 6IPC NO.
I don’t know, I guess I’ve done a lot whining about BM and the guerilla fighters in particular. It doesn’t look like anything is changing anytime soon. I’m not the best player but not the worst either and why should the top players listen to me! I agree with many points and the point about Italy being more fun under BM is a great one. I just wish we didn’t have to make the sacrifices that I don’t like to get all that’s good in BM.
One thing I have only recently noticed about BM3’s IJ/Okinawa objective, it allows a J2 purchase of an IC/NB/AB without any money saved J1. If you also have bought 3TT 1 marine J1, it’s difficult to stop the J3 Calcutta crush. This also means taking out China can be done faster with the 3 extra units you can build on Asia from having the IC a turn earlier. Doesn’t sound like much but these things do have an effect.
So perhaps there is a problem with the IJ objective. I guess the other argument is that perhaps you should be able to stop the J3 Calcutta crush then there’s no point to the AB/NB/IC purchase. I don’t find that particularly convincing though.
sz 5 should be a convoy lane in BM because of the lend lease rules. The other lend lease lanes are, why not sz 5?
@oysteilo Hey Oystello, fair question.
First, when we identified the lend lease routes, the issue of whether the SZ was marked a convoy zone was irrelevant. The only relevant question was, was this SZ used as one of the primary lend lease routes. If so, it was included in the objective.
Second, the purpose of the lend lease modification was to boost Russian income, relative to the vanilla game. Adding a convoy lane there would obviously have a reverse result.
Third, with BM, we strove to create a mod that could be played on the original map (including the OOB set) without modification. For this reason (and because we saw no overriding gameplay justification for it), we did not add or remove convoy zones.
Hope that helps!
But you can’t play it IRL without doing something about the marines. Why’s it too hard to do something which changes the convoy zones?
I’ve posted something similar to oysteilo previously.
A downside to changing the convoy zones would be that it would increase the disincentive for USSR to declare war on Japan. I think that would be a problem. If Japan does a DOW and drops a sub in SZ5 while Archangel or Persia LL are nullified, USSR doesn’t gain anything from the Japanese DOW on it. The trouble with that argument is that both those scenarios are difficult to guarantee.
However, I think the community has spoken. There’s no push for change in BM unfortunately.
Maybe I should get some more players to play test the Canadian mod - but I think having to buy 7 inf UK1/Europe is a bit of a problem.
Marines are optional, and putting a piece of tape on inf to make marines is simple enough. Changing the set up/board is drastic in comparison.
Main reason for why it shouldn’t be added is that it doesn’t improve anything, and may actually put too much value on that part of the board.
