2015 League Post Game Results Here

@JWW:

First let me apologize to Gamerman for making him wade through this nonsense while trying to calculate our league standings.

Thank you

Hey, we all get mad about A&A games from time to time.  There are plenty of players who blow up less often than me…  Sometimes you find out there are certain players/personalities that you just shouldn’t play.  Going back in time in an A&A game is a very touchy issue.  People have different opinions about it.  We have a league stance in the league rules.  You can’t go back without your opponent’s consent.

Everything you did was legal JWW, but that doesn’t necessarily make it right. The purpose of my comments on this thread was to make the situation between you and Pherman known to those who care so that they can think for themselves if what happened was right or not.

My opinion on what you did wrong in that game, since you asked for it, is as follows:
You laughed at an edit request. Unless it’s a joke made by your opponent, I don’t see how it is anything less than a disrespectful act. Furthermore, the edit was perfectly reasonable and would necessitate little to no change to your moves and it was asked for because the map appeared to show some of your units in the wrong territory. There are only 2 reasons that I can think of right now that would make what you did correct: you don’t believe that your opponent’s map showed the units in the wrong territory, or that he’s been abusing of edits in the grey area during the game and that you are taking a stand against that.

On another note, why would you even want to win a game because of some interface mistake? That’s quite confusing to me.

JWW,
Do not feel guilty. The rules are rues. You do not have to explain anything. If the folks are talking about how it looks like, the discussion should start from the question why some players are ignoring their opponents? Or, when they are back with explanations and request to continue the game, why you refused it? With all of the respect to any unforeseen circumstances everyone can face, a short sorry notice is expected to be posted at least in a week or so. Please respect each other.

alexgreat (Allies +21) over Cyanight (Axis)

Excellent jog Alex. I really thought I had this game and even had the dice roll my way a few times. Thanks for the fun game and good luck with your future games.

I wasn’t sure I was posting in the correct thread. Did Pherman quit? I have been very patient waiting on his turn and only bumping after 1 week and then another 5 days.  I know its supposed to be 2 days but I do like to continue the games rather than throw them in the trash.  And most of those games Im losing anyways, lol.

alexgreat (Allies +21) over Cyanight (Axis)

Forgot to post the link above

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36402.new;topicseen#new

Karl7 Axis over Mike 4848

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36258.255

GG

16 bid…… never had a chance  :cry:

:wink:

I apologize to all in advance for the length of this post…
@Adam514:

Everything you did was legal JWW

I and everyone else who is following this nonsense realize that but thanks.

@Adam514:

but that doesn’t necessarily make it right.

You are wrong it does make it right. There is no other arbiter other than the rules we all agree to follow.

@Adam514:

The purpose of my comments on this thread was to make the situation between you and Pherman known

That�s cool, it will be interesting to discover what the League community thinks about all of this.

@Adam514:

My opinion on what you did wrong in that game, since you asked for it, is as follows: You laughed at an edit request.

Correct, I wrote the word �funny�, I found the request to be both funny/odd and funny/ha ha.

@Adam514:

Unless it’s a joke made by your opponent, I don’t see how it is anything less than a disrespectful act.

Perhaps, he, you and others find my writing the word funny as a sign of disrespect. If that�s the case I am glad he didn�t see the look on my face when I read his �reasonable� request! You know Adam, the way I was raised, where I come from, respect is earned. Playing 3 rounds of A&A w/me doesn�t earn anyone my respect. If he is so thin skinned that this one simple word caused his major melt down then I actually feel bad for the guy and I am NOT the empathetic type.

@Adam514:

Furthermore, the edit was perfectly reasonable

I can�t disagree with you more on this point.

@Adam514:

the map appeared to show some of your units in the wrong territory.

Let�s be perfectly clear, the units were in the correct territory! In fact, in many, many, instances with stacks of multiple units in small territories in triple A the map, at a simple glance, can be confusing. That�s why there is a Territory tab! You are aware, I am sure, of the Territory tab? Was it not his responsibility to ensure where these units were? A simple yes or no will suffice here Adam and I am happy to wait for your response.

@Adam514:

There are only 2 reasons that I can think of right now that would make what you did correct: you don’t believe that your opponent’s map showed the units in the wrong territory,

Sigh, again, to be clear for everyone that needs to distinguish what was or wasn�t right about this situation, which is your stated goal here Adam. Triple A had everything correct, the map wasn�t wrong, PHerman simply screwed up. He made a mistake, as we all do, pure and simple. That�s it, case closed, the BIG mystery has been revealed!  It�s only a game, he should have accepted his mistake and moved on…… like most of us do.

@Adam514:

On another note, why would you even want to win a game because of some interface mistake?

I don�t understand why you keep casting responsibility for PHerman�s fcuk up on me or Triple A. There was NO interface mistake. Why don�t you place blame for this where it belongs?

Also, although PHerman�s mistake was going to cost him his small ITA/Ger fleet it wasn�t game ending! Perhaps a 20-30 TUV swing?!? Once he came to terms with the fact that I wasn�t going to let him off the hook for his laziness, let�s all be honest here that is all this is, he requested that we continue the game, he apologized to me and he stated that he was going to �whoop my ass�! We can certainly speculate as to what happened after I obliged him and continued playing but as I suspected, he wasn�t long for the unrespecting, harsh world, of our A&A League community.

And for all the PHerman apologists out there who think this type of edit is reasonable, I ask you this, where does the rationale for requests/demands for this type of edit end? How often will we hear players lamenting about what they missed? �STOP the game, I thought those ITA mechs were in Bessarabia not UKR, I need to go back and change my russian turn. What do you mean you wont allow this, there were large stacks of units positioned closely on the map together, you clearly should allow this edit. I shouldn�t have to lose 20-30 + TUV because of this triple A error !?!?!?!??!?! Perhaps we should make a new rule where we can all stop the game when we screw up so that we can instantly remedy our mistakes and laziness.?

In nearly all of my losses and I would suspect in most of yours, some level of blunder was made on the losers side. Something wasn�t seen, something was overlooked, we moved too fast, we didn�t check the territory tab or didn�t run the proper battle calculations. I guess from now on, going forward, some would argue we should be able to stop the game, demand/expect, that our opponents allow us to go back a few countries turns and change our attacks, perhaps purchases, non coms and the like because we screwed up….this is absolute and utter nonsense…

Personally I come from the face to face and Abattlemap world where edit�s, redo�s, and the like simply didn�t exist. I have always thought of our League as an online version of the GenCon tourneys where the best come to play to test their skills, yes, in this game. I found PHermans request as odd and unreasonable and therefore wrote �funny�. I would never ask for nor grant this �going back in time� edit because someone was lazy and didn�t do their due diligence. There is nothing special about this situation other than my opponent felt that he was special and that he was entitled to me obliging this unreasonable edit. His subsequent actions portrayed to me that of an entitled child who didn�t hear the word NO enough from adults around him.

I would hope that other League players agree with my position and take on how the League is to be run. We have a thread for non-league games that aren�t tracked for records, playoffs and the like. I would argue, for players that want to be able to make these reasonable �go back in time edits� that the non league gaming thread is for you. At the very least if you request such an edit and your opponent abides by OUR rules and says no, you should have enough respect for our league and it’s rules that you simply continue playing without making threats, innuendo�s and the like.

JWW

Whether it would have been sportsmanlike or nice of JWW to grant the re-do is another issue.

But the bottom line is, no player can expect any re-do’s.  Technically, when you roll dice, your combat move, in it’s entirety, is locked in.  When you post at the end of the turn, you are locked in.  Technically you don’t have the right to expect your opponent to allow you to make a single non-com or placement edit after that, even if it’s 15 seconds after that (that’s about as fast as Triple A can do it).

You can only go back in time when your opponent allows you to do that, and yes small courtesies are often extended, but the opponent of a player who made a mistake has zero responsibility or obligation to grant requests.

The league IS a site for standardized competition, complete with rules and moderators, and not being able to go back in time without permission is rule #9

I understand some will have the opinion that JWW is a hard-ass, and that’s fine, but no one has any obligation to bend rule #9 for their opponent’s benefit.  Ever.

Personally I come from the face to face and Abattlemap world where edit�s, redo�s, and the like simply didn�t exist.

I think there may be some “cultural divides” here.  There is a divide between league/ladder play and live play, where (the former) is about accumulating stats (for prestige) and taking advantage of opponent errors to accumulate those stats is all in the game while the latter is basically about having fun and winning on wings of an opponent’s error is anti-climatic.  And there is the tradition of Battlemap play as well as PBEM play where “checking” the map to make sure all your units and your opponent’s units are exactly where they are supposed to be, is also part of the game.   Finally is a tradition universal to PBEM play, including the TripleA ladder, that once combat dice have been rolled, editing moves made before those dice have been rolled is at the opponent’s discretion.

If we take all this into account I think there’s no basis for criticizing JWW for refusing the edit in this instance.  Like Me1945 said, he shouldn’t have to explain himself.

I believe Pherman when he says he didn’t notice that the units were on Alg not Mor and that flaws in the TripleA interface are the reason he didn’t catch it.  Otherwise he wouldn’t have wanted the edit.  Most of us have been in that position, asked for the edit, and been pissed off if our opponent doesn’t grant it….but…if combat dice have been rolled since the error occurred it’s all in the game.  Reviewing the map to catch those mistakes are part of the game and part of the league competition.  We’re all human; we all make mistakes.  Part of succeeding in the league (as well as in war) is minimizing those mistakes.

Perfectly said, thanks, Zhukov

@Mallery29:

@Mallery29:

Mallery29(Axis) over Procas(Allies)……

will continue if comes back, especially with game early on, but it’s nice to have Egypt as the Axis and be able to hold it for once (I’m tired of getting my #%#$ pushed in there as the allies!).

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36334.30

sorry

Wanted to make sure not lost in the thread!  Thanks!

15L BerntBernt (Axis) vs. Dawgoneit (Allies +18) BerntBernt wins
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36420.60

@Mallery29:

Wanted to make sure not lost in the thread!  Thanks!

I think I got it, Mallery, but maybe I got the Axis and Allies mixed up

Are you 1-1 with Procas now, or 2-1?  That will help me clear it up

I’m 2-1 right now!    :-D

Sorry for another post about this but I didn’t think it would be considerate not to reply to JWW.

Do I really have to explain how something legal can not be right? Alright I’ll be quick: someone on the street asks for directions and you intentionally point him in the wrong direction.

The rules, similarly to the law, are there to prevent the would-be cheaters and edit abusers etc from having their way with people. It serves as a base, upon which some people can build to establish an honour and trust system. That’s how I perceived the league when I joined in any case.

Yes the units were in the right territory lol, but you seem to be missing the point, which is that they appeared to be in the wrong territory. Would you want your opponent to extend by a significant amount his time doing his turns for something as silly as verifying that all the units are in the correct territory? I’ve trusted my opponents to allow obvious edits, and if I see something weird about my opponent’s moves relating to a possibility of confusion (something like between you and Pherman), I won’t hesitate to ask about it. I wouldn’t want to win because of something like that. I’ve seen my fair share of UK players inadvertently sending their fighters on S Italy or in Malta, things happen that are sometimes beyond our control.

I’m aware of the Territory tab, but I use the battle calculator instead. Indeed it was no one else’s fault other than Pherman’s for not seeing the units in the right territory, but that mistake is so understandable that I wouldn’t even be close to debating if I should allow the edit, let alone laugh at it.

I’m pretty sure most would agree that a minimum of respect should be given to anyone until they have proven that they aren’t worthy of respect, but whatever.

The fact that you say that it’s only a game goes both ways, and from my perspective the fact that it’s a game should make it even easier to allow edits. Seems intuitive enough.

I never said it was your fault at all for the error and it really isn’t, how you handled afterwards is more than questionable in my opinion though.

Yes it wasn’t game ending at all, but I certainly wouldn’t want an opponent that would laugh at my edit request like that. Like I said before this conversation is to make it known to those who care so that this kind of thing doesn’t happen again.

The rationale is very simple: common sense and honour. If my opponent asks for an edit a few turns down the line that wasn’t prompted by my moves or dice for example I’ll be just fine allowing it. If he abuses it though that’s another story.

Yes I’ve lost because I’ve overlooked things or miscalced things or didn’t see something. I wouldn’t ask for an edit or a redo since I could have reasonably done better, so this is different from the game between you and Pherman.

Ah well I guess I understand where you’re coming from if you started off with limited edit possibilities (doesn’t excuse your way of handling it of course), but one last question though: if Pherman had taken your refusal of the edit ‘‘like an adult’’, would you have enjoyed the rest of the game? Would you think that the game was won through your skill?

@Adam514:

but one last question though: if Pherman had taken your refusal of the edit ‘‘like an adult’’, would you have enjoyed the rest of the game? Would you think that the game was won through your skill?

I’ll answer for JWW here.  “Absolutely”

I’ll tell you why.  I have played correspondence chess competitively since 1984, when I was a but a child.  I lost MANY games due to notational errors.  What this means is: if the move you wrote on the postcard can be legally played, it is binding.  Period.  So, if you wrote Qe7 when you meant to write Qe2, and Qe7 is an obvious blunder, tough.  Qe7 is the move.

And guess what?  By about 1987 forward I made NO notational mistakes again in games.  Did I whine about it?  No.  Why?  I knew the rules going in.  If I wanted a casual game I would have played my friend down the street.  But this isn’t “casual”.  This is “league”.

Nuff said.

@DizzKneeLand33:

@Adam514:

but one last question though: if Pherman had taken your refusal of the edit ‘‘like an adult’’, would you have enjoyed the rest of the game? Would you think that the game was won through your skill?

I’ll answer for JWW here.  “Absolutely”

I’ll tell you why.  I have played correspondence chess competitively since 1984, when I was a but a child.  I lost MANY games due to notational errors.  What this means is: if the move you wrote on the postcard can be legally played, it is binding.  Period.  So, if you wrote Qe7 when you meant to write Qe2, and Qe7 is an obvious blunder, tough.  Qe7 is the move.

And guess what?  By about 1987 forward I made NO notational mistakes again in games.  Did I whine about it?  No.  Why?  I knew the rules going in.  If I wanted a casual game I would have played my friend down the street.  But this isn’t “casual”.  This is “league”.

Nuff said.

Yes I totally understand why that should be binding, since it seems pretty complicated to retract the move for one, but this isn’t the same situation. A more comparable situation would be a badly written number or letter (or written very small).

Most people in the league are casual by their own definition.

So you would think you were better than your opponent if something like this happened? Surprising but ok… now how would it be fun knowing you won because of a mistake like that? It’s something your opponent would not do in any other circumstances, hence it is not skill related. I compare it to winning because of luck.

Would you want your opponent to extend by a significant amount his time doing his turns for something as silly as verifying that all the units are in the correct territory?

It may appear a little anal, but yes this kind of meticulousness is part of the format and part of the competition.  TripleA software has made “map checking” a less important part of competitive A&A than it was with Battlemap, but it’s still an important part of the game.

It takes a while for a predominately live player to master the PBEM/league/ladder format and play style.  An advanced player like Pherman will take a few more losses than normal (including losing some games that he would have won without unintentional errors) while adjusting to the PBEM format because he’ll lack the experience the veterans of the format possess.  Certain kinds of mistakes, like the one being discussed, might be fixed via edit in live games but are irrevocable in PBEM league/ladder games.  PBEM is indeed slower format requiring more deliberation per move and where rash calls can be disastrous.

So hopefully Pherman will be back and will adjust his play style to succeed in the league format.  If he does, he’s probably Tier 1 or better.