Global 2nd edition Q+A ( AAG40.2)

@Cadwaladr:

Follow up question though about Neutrals… if the Axis were to invade pro-allied neutral like Greece or Yogoslavia, would then strict neutrals join the Allies?

No. The strict neutrals stay strict neutral until one side attacks a strict neutral, at that point they all become pro-‘the other side’.

@Mistergreen:

@Cadwaladr:

Follow up question though about Neutrals… if the Axis were to invade pro-allied neutral like Greece or Yogoslavia, would then strict neutrals join the Allies?

No. The strict neutrals stay strict neutral until one side attacks a strict neutral, at that point they all become pro-‘the other side’.

Got’cha! ty!

A few questions my fellow gamers want “proof” on.

Mechanized infantry and tanks cannot move into a pro-Allies and then into another territory in the noncombatant move phase, correct? Example. A mechanized infanrty in West India moves into Eastern Persia, but it may not move into Persia then, correct?

You may not offload from a friendly transport then load onto it again that turn, correct? Example. Two British units ofload from a US transport in SZ 110 and attack Normandy. The British may not move two more units onto that same transport in the noncombatant move,  correct?

You may bring air units into a sea zone in anticipation of the enemy scrambling even if there are no enemy ships in that sea sone, correct?  Example. The Americans bring a fleet to SZ 95 to attack Italy. There are no Italian ships there,  but there are planes that can scramble from Southern Italy. The US may bring air craft into SZ 95 in case they scramble,  correct?

Thanks!

de Gaulle

You are correct on all three accounts, Charles De Gaulle.

@Charles:

A few questions my fellow gamers want “proof” on.

See below:

@Charles:

Mechanized infantry and tanks cannot move into a pro-Allies and then into another territory in the noncombatant move phase, correct? Example. A mechanized infanrty in West India moves into Eastern Persia, but it may not move into Persia then, correct?

@Rules:

Friendly neutrals may not be attacked, and air units
may not fly over them. They can be moved into (but not
through) as a noncombat move by land units of a power
that is at war (see “Noncombat Move,” page 22). This
moves the territory out of its neutral status, however. The
first friendly power to do so places its national control
marker on the former friendly neutral territory, and its
national production level is adjusted upward by the value
of the territory. With the territory’s loss of neutrality in
this way, its standing army is immediately activated.
The units placed belong to the power that now controls
the formerly neutral territory, and may be used freely
beginning on that power’s next turn.

@Charles:

You may not offload from a friendly transport then load onto it again that turn, correct? Example. Two British units ofload from a US transport in SZ 110 and attack Normandy. The British may not move two more units onto that same transport in the noncombatant move,  correct?

@Europe:

Whenever a transport offloads, it can’t move again that
turn. If a transport retreats, it can’t offload that turn. A
transport can’t offload in two territories during a single
turn, nor can it offload cargo onto another transport. A
transport can’t load or offload while in a hostile sea zone.
Remember that hostile sea zones contain enemy units, but
that for purposes of determining the status of a sea zone,
submarines and transports are ignored.

@Europe:

Transports can move to friendly coastal territories
and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved,
offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat
Move or Conduct Combat phase.

@Europe:

It can offload in only one territory, and
once it offloads, it can’t move, load, or offload again that
turn.

@Charles:

You may bring air units into a sea zone in anticipation of the enemy scrambling even if there are no enemy ships in that sea sone, correct?  Example. The Americans bring a fleet to SZ 95 to attack Italy. There are no Italian ships there,  but there are planes that can scramble from Southern Italy. The US may bring air craft into SZ 95 in case they scramble,  correct?

@Europe:

Moving transports and their cargo into a sea zone from
which you plan to make an amphibious assault counts as
a combat move, even if there are no defending surface
warships there and there is no potential for air units to be
scrambled (see “Scramble,” page 16). This is also true of
any units that will support the assault. Further, if enemy
air units could potentially be scrambled to defend the sea
zone, additional units may be moved into the sea zone to
combat them in case they are indeed scrambled.

Should satisfy them.

Now my own question. What is the reason you should be able to NCM a sub into a sea zone containing an enemy destroyer? I hate this rule. It likely has cost me a game - I wasn’t aware of it before.

@simon33:

Now my own question. What is the reason you should be able to NCM a sub into a sea zone containing an enemy destroyer? I hate this rule. It likely has cost me a game - I wasn’t aware of it before.

As you said, it’s the rules:

@rulebook:

Sea Units: A sea unit can move through any friendly sea
zone. It can’t move into or through a hostile sea zone.
Unlike other sea units, submarines can move through and
even into hostile sea zones in the Noncombat Move phase.
However, a submarine must end its movement when it enters
a sea zone containing one or more enemy destroyers.

So a destroyer does not cancel the sub’s ability to move into that seazone, but only forces it to stop there.

HTH :-)

Yeah, it’s a rule but it seems a counter intuitive one. DDs are supposed to nullify the special abilities of subs. I can’t see a reason for this exception to what one would expect.

@simon33:

Yeah, it’s a rule but it seems a counter intuitive one. DDs are supposed to nullify the special abilities of subs. I can’t see a reason for this exception to what one would expect.

I don’t know about the design idea behind this rule.

I just can add, that the last edition where subs were not allowed to end their movement in a hostile seazone has been Revised.
The current rule started with Anniversary Edition as far as I remember.

@simon33:

Yeah, it’s a rule but it seems a counter intuitive one. DDs are supposed to nullify the special abilities of subs. I can’t see a reason for this exception to what one would expect.

You may see it like it was in real during WW II.
German SS often slipped through the weak blockers on the outside of the Convoy into the Center of a Convoy undetected (represents a NCM).
After being detected by Allied DD’s, it was their job to separate the Wulfs from the Sheeps.
The DD’s dealt with the SS while the Convoy moved along.

For the gameplay I see it like a tactic.
While the bulk of ships has to move on the DD will deal with the SS unit.
Therfor you kinda separate the DD’s from the bulk. :-)

@simon33:

@Charles:

A few questions my fellow gamers want “proof” on.

See below:

@Charles:

Mechanized infantry and tanks cannot move into a pro-Allies and then into another territory in the noncombatant move phase, correct? Example. A mechanized infanrty in West India moves into Eastern Persia, but it may not move into Persia then, correct?

@Rules:

Friendly neutrals may not be attacked, and air units
may not fly over them. They can be moved into (but not
through) as a noncombat move by land units of a power
that is at war (see �Noncombat Move,� page 22). This
moves the territory out of its neutral status, however. The
first friendly power to do so places its national control
marker on the former friendly neutral territory, and its
national production level is adjusted upward by the value
of the territory. With the territory�s loss of neutrality in
this way, its standing army is immediately activated.
The units placed belong to the power that now controls
the formerly neutral territory, and may be used freely
beginning on that power�s next turn.

@Charles:

You may not offload from a friendly transport then load onto it again that turn, correct? Example. Two British units ofload from a US transport in SZ 110 and attack Normandy. The British may not move two more units onto that same transport in the noncombatant move,  correct?

@Europe:

Whenever a transport offloads, it can�t move again that
turn. If a transport retreats, it can�t offload that turn. A
transport can�t offload in two territories during a single
turn, nor can it offload cargo onto another transport. A
transport can�t load or offload while in a hostile sea zone.
Remember that hostile sea zones contain enemy units, but
that for purposes of determining the status of a sea zone,
submarines and transports are ignored.

@Europe:

Transports can move to friendly coastal territories
and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved,
offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat
Move or Conduct Combat phase.

@Europe:

It can offload in only one territory, and
once it offloads, it can�t move, load, or offload again that
turn.

@Charles:

You may bring air units into a sea zone in anticipation of the enemy scrambling even if there are no enemy ships in that sea sone, correct?  Example. The Americans bring a fleet to SZ 95 to attack Italy. There are no Italian ships there,  but there are planes that can scramble from Southern Italy. The US may bring air craft into SZ 95 in case they scramble,  correct?

@Europe:

Moving transports and their cargo into a sea zone from
which you plan to make an amphibious assault counts as
a combat move, even if there are no defending surface
warships there and there is no potential for air units to be
scrambled (see �Scramble,� page 16). This is also true of
any units that will support the assault. Further, if enemy
air units could potentially be scrambled to defend the sea
zone, additional units may be moved into the sea zone to
combat them in case they are indeed scrambled.

Should satisfy them.

Perfect! Thanks a lot!

Question that has been bugging me. Can a CV ignore a sub in combat and/or escort a TT on an amphibious assault. It has no attack which can hit it so it might not follow that it does/can.

@simon33:

Question that has been bugging me. Can a CV ignore a sub in combat and/or escort a TT on an amphibious assault. It has

no attack which can hit it so it might not follow that it does/can.

Yes to both aspects.

@rulebook:

However, a transport
is not allowed to offload land units for an amphibious
assault in a sea zone containing 1 or more ignored enemy
submarines unless at least 1 warship belonging to the
attacking power is also present in the sea zone at the end
of the Combat Move phase.

and

@rulebook:

Doesn’t Block Enemy Movement: The “stealth” ability
of submarines also allows enemy ships to ignore their
presence. Any sea zone that contains only enemy
submarines doesn’t stop the movement of a sea unit.
Sea units ending their combat movement in a sea zone
containing only enemy submarines may choose to attack
them or not. Sea units can also end their noncombat
movement in a sea zone containing only enemy
submarines.

There is no exception for Carriers.

However, there is a situation where the attack value is relevant:

@rulebook:

No Combat Value: Even though a transport can attack or defend, either alone or with other units, it has a combat value
of 0. This means that a transport can’t fire in the attacking units’ or the defending units’ fire steps. Transports may
not attack in a sea battle without being accompanied by at least 1 unit with an attack value.

HTH :-)

Japan has a submarine in sea zone 19, the US brings in 1 loaded transport and 1 loaded carrier to escort the transport landing in Manchuria in order to ignore the sub. Japan takes out the carrier using Kamikaze tokens, so is the landing still legal seeing as the escorting ship was there at the end of Americas combat round?

(I know this is a bit out of place  :| sorry) Does anybody have the first edition setups? I have been wanting those for awhile. Thanks!

de Gaulle

@Young:

Japan has a submarine in sea zone 19, the US brings in 1 loaded transport and 1 loaded carrier to escort the transport landing in Manchuria in order to ignore the sub. Japan takes out the carrier using Kamikaze tokens, so is the landing still legal seeing as the escorting ship was there at the end of Americas combat round?

Correct :-)

(Kamikaze takes place in the Conduct Combat Phase.)

Edit: … you meant, “at the end of Americas combat move”, didn’t you?

@P@nther:

@Young:

Japan has a submarine in sea zone 19, the US brings in 1 loaded transport and 1 loaded carrier to escort the transport landing in Manchuria in order to ignore the sub. Japan takes out the carrier using Kamikaze tokens, so is the landing still legal seeing as the escorting ship was there at the end of Americas combat round?

Correct :-)

(Kamikaze takes place in the Conduct Combat Phase.)

I don’t reckon the rules are clear on that one but I would have thought the landing could not take place. In the interests of fairness perhaps a retreat should be allowed without letting the sub roll on the TT or maybe the sub should indeed get a roll on the TT since there is indeed no escorting warship for the assault.

This is where a phase for declaring Kamikazes and scrambles between Combat Move and Combat would make things clear.

Two hits on the CV from Kami’s? Nasty. The planes will most likely splash.

I guess the major reason to ignore submarines is bombardment - otherwise it probably shouldn’t be possible.

@Young:

Japan has a submarine in sea zone 19, the US brings in 1 loaded transport and 1 loaded carrier to escort the transport landing in Manchuria in order to ignore the sub. Japan takes out the carrier using Kamikaze tokens, so is the landing still legal seeing as the escorting ship was there at the end of Americas combat round?

I have no idea

I also find it weird that a carrier can escort a transport and then ignore the sub (yeah, I know you can) but after all a carrier has an attack value of 0, exactely the same as the tranny. In that case you should be able to defend with the sub and hence kill the carrier

@simon33:

I don’t reckon the rules are clear on that one…
…since there is indeed no escorting warship for the assault.

Maybe here is a misunderstanding: The requirement of an escorting warship is not ‘bound’ to the assault itself that takes place in the Conduct Combat Phase. It is a requirement for the Combat Move Phase, see again:

@rulebook:

However, a transport
is not allowed to offload land units for an amphibious
assault in a sea zone containing 1 or more ignored enemy
submarines unless at least 1 warship belonging to the
attacking power is also present in the sea zone at the end
of the Combat Move phase.

Pretty clear, as I think.

This is only the rules of course, I do understand that you do not feel comfortable with that.

Alright, I guess then it is clear. I assumed that the requirement to be escorted was attached to the Combat phase - but it makes perfect sense for it to be attached to the Combat Movement phase. So then it follows that if your TT starts Combat movement in a hostile SZ and is forced to move, it can still move to a SZ with a sub and not attack it.

Now I follow what you were saying with the “Combat phase” above.