Submarines vs surface ships with no destroyer present

[sfcdodge65]

I know submarines get the surprise attack each round when no destroyer is present. My question is two-part. First, does the submarine fire again during the regular combat step (I did not read the rules that way)? Second, if you do not fire once during surprise step and once during regular combat step for each sub and you only have a submarine(s) on one side, doesn’t that pretty much negate the surprise step? (i.e. a german sub fires during the surprise step. then a British battleship and cruiser fire during the regular combat step). That only gives the sub an advantage of inflicting the casualty from a “2” roll before the enemy executes their defensive fire rolls of “3” and “4”.  There would be no die roll from the attacker during the regular combat step, only a defender’s roll.

[Panther]

Welcome to the forum, sfcdodge65.

The submarine’s surprise strike is it’s attacking shot in the combat sequence. So it does not get a second shot, when the other attacking units (if present) come to fire.

The advantage is obvious, when an enemy unit is sunk by it - in this case the defending unit has to be removed immediately and cannot fire back.
Battleships and Carriers are two hit units in Global. A single surprise strike hit just damages them. So in your given situation the outcome of the battle might be a lost sub on one side, and a damaged battleship and a surviving cruiser on the other side. So this is not a promising battle.

But think of other situations:

Regarding Carriers, the advantage of one hit can be huge: Planes coming from them are defending in the air - and they cannot land on a damaged carrier. So if they cannot reach a landing spot they will be destroyed. You have to think carefully before assigning a hit to a carrier. The carrier is reduced to a one hit unit until it will be repaired.
Regarding Battleships there is still an advantage left: The battleship, too, when damaged is reduced to a one hit unit until it will be repaired.

Or imagine two subs against one Battleship: With some luck both subs score a hit with their surprise strikes. Then the Battleship is sunk without firing back.

[knp7765]

@P@nther:

You have to think carefully before assigning a hit to a carrier. The carrier is reduced to a one hit unit until it will be repaired.

Actually, if a submarine attacks a lone carrier, you have no choice but to take the hit on the carrier because the sub can’t hit the planes. So, if I ever happen to have a submarine within range of an enemy’s lone carrier, I will usually take the chance and attack. Sure, even if I hit with the surprise strike that carrier still has a chance to hit back @ 2 but even if that happens, I lose 1 sub while my enemy loses 2 fighters and/or tac bombers plus now has to get his carrier repaired. Sometimes it is really inconvenient to have to travel back to a friendly naval base.

[barney]

really makes one love those guys in the destroyer : )

[calvinhobbesliker]

@knp7765:

@P@nther:

You have to think carefully before assigning a hit to a carrier. The carrier is reduced to a one hit unit until it will be repaired.

Actually, if a submarine attacks a lone carrier, you have no choice but to take the hit on the carrier because the sub can’t hit the planes. So, if I ever happen to have a submarine within range of an enemy’s lone carrier, I will usually take the chance and attack. Sure, even if I hit with the surprise strike that carrier still has a chance to hit back @ 2 but even if that happens, I lose 1 sub while my enemy loses 2 fighters and/or tac bombers plus now has to get his carrier repaired. Sometimes it is really inconvenient to have to travel back to a friendly naval base.

Well, if the carrier is adjacent to an enemy land territory, the planes can land there.

[JeroldTheGreat]

cant you choose either to launch your planes in a defense or not? I feel like it would be a more logical rule for this very situation. In real life the planes wouldn’t even have a chance to take off if the submarine made a surprise strike.

[majikforce]

@JeroldTheGreat:

cant you choose either to launch your planes in a defense or not? I feel like it would be a more logical rule for this very situation. In real life the planes wouldn’t even have a chance to take off if the submarine made a surprise strike.

So are you suggesting that when a sub attacks a loaded carrier w/o a destroyer present instead of the planes potentially being lost due to the sub hit, the planes would then get locked on the carrier due to the sub hit?  Very interesting house rule possibility.

[Panther]

@JeroldTheGreat:

cant you choose either to launch your planes in a defense or not? I feel like it would be a more logical rule for this very situation. In real life the planes wouldn’t even have a chance to take off if the submarine made a surprise strike.

No, at least not according to the rules:

@rulebook:

Aircraft Carriers
…
Air Defense: Whenever an undamaged carrier is attacked,
its aircraft (even those belonging to friendly powers) are
considered to be defending in the air and fight normally,
even if only submarines are attacking and the air units
cannot hit them because there is no defending destroyer.
…

[corybraum]

I thought that if a carrier gets damaged that the defending fighters (The ones already on the carrier before the battle) would just go into cargo and may not takeoff until the carrier was repaired?

[Panther]

@corybraum:

I thought that if a carrier gets damaged that the defending fighters (The ones already on the carrier before the battle) would just go into cargo and may not takeoff until the carrier was repaired?

No, they are defending in the air, as quoted above.

What you may have in mind is the following rule:

@rulebook:

Any guest air units that were on board the carrier as cargo
at the time when it was damaged are trapped onboard and
can’t leave, attack, or defend until the carrier is repaired.

[wheatbeer]

@corybraum:

I thought that if a carrier gets damaged that the defending fighters (The ones already on the carrier before the battle) would just go into cargo and may not takeoff until the carrier was repaired?

Defending air units can never become cargo.

Air units can only become cargo if they were aboard another power’s carrier and that carrier was damaged during the carrier-owner’s turn.

Ex:
It’s the US turn. The US fights a sea battle while ANZAC planes are aboard a US carrier. The US carrier gets damaged (but not sunk) during the US combat phase. Then the ANZAC planes would become cargo until the US carrier is repaired.

[corybraum]

Ok thank you for clearing that up for me.

[Narvik]

@majikforce:

So are you suggesting that when a sub attacks a loaded carrier w/o a destroyer present instead of the planes potentially being lost due to the sub hit, the planes would then get locked on the carrier due to the sub hit?  Very interesting house rule possibility.

Well, the carrier HMS Glorious was sunk by battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and all the planes in that carrier went down the water, no one were in the air. I cant think on any case a carrier was sunk and its planes were in the air.

[aequitas-et-veritas]

It may depend on the situation.

Sit.1)
A lone weak escorted Carrier gets suprised by a one or a few subs.
We may assume it will not get enough Airplanes up before it gets sunk.

Sit.2)
Enemy Subs are expected in the operating area and a DD or a few Corvetts are escorting as well.
Planes will be quicker up and serching the area for Subs.

Summary:
It will be hard for planes to search areas for Subs wich could be there.
It will be more sufficent for planes to search an area where SS def. be expected.

A lone weak guarded Carrier may not be able to afford having planes up all the time searching in wide radius for anything suspicious.
And having received a good hit by a Sub on your Carrier may not give you enough time to get any planes up in time because you are busy getting everymen off board savely.

The G40 rules are based on a good decission to have Subs and Ftr separeted in combat unless a DD is present in the battle against the SS.
It gives good balance and tactical decissions to choose your targets with SS or escort your value ships right to protect them of suprising suddenly loss.

[sfcdodge65]

All great comments and definitely answered my question. Thanks for all the helpful input!

[wilk7011]

Making sure I read this right because the rulebook does not say immediately remove them as it does in other areas.

1. If a sub attacks and hit a surface ship (not a capital ship) with a surprise strike, that unit is removed without a chance to fire back.

2. If a sub hits another sub with a surprise strike that sub still gets to surprise strike back before it is removed

3. If a sub opts not to submerge and gets a hit with a surprise strike on defense the attackers takes on a surface ship (not capital ship) with out that unit firing back.

4. Defending subs have option to submerge before attacking subs can surprise attack

Thanks for the help with each of these situations.

[simon33]

In response to the OP, it does negate the surprise strike if the defender takes the hit on a sub. That sub still gets to fire back, unless the attacker has a destroyer when the surprise strike on defence is negated.

[baron Münchhausen]

@simon33:

In response to the OP, it does negate the surprise strike if the defender takes the hit on a sub. That sub still gets to fire back, unless the attacker has a destroyer when the surprise strike on defence is negated.

Submarines casualty can retaliate against Submarines first strike only if the other side have no Destroyer. Otherwise, its surprise strike is blocked so it fires during regular combat phase and if chosen as casualty it is sunk and denied an attack or defense roll.

So, when no DD is present, Submarines are almost as useful as Destroyers because chosing one Sub as casualty gives no first strike advantage to the other side, since the casualty still roll his defense.

[simon33]

@Baron:

@simon33:

In response to the OP, it does negate the surprise strike if the defender takes the hit on a sub. That sub still gets to fire back, unless the attacker has a destroyer when the surprise strike on defence is negated.

Submarines casualty can retaliate against Submarines first strike only if the other side have no Destroyer. Otherwise, its surprise strike is blocked so it fires during regular combat phase and if chosen as casualty it is sunk and denied an attack or defense roll.

So, when no DD is present, Submarines are almost as useful as Destroyers because chosing one Sub as casualty gives no first strike advantage to the other side, since the casualty still roll his defense.

That is what I said.

[baron Münchhausen]

Yes, you are right. I read it too late in the evening.  :-D
It is just a different formulation, finally.