Submarines v. anything that isn't a destroyer

[Stough]

If ships are unaccompanied by a destroyer, can’t a sub just blast away with the surprise strike in round two and not have any fear of retribution. Am I reading this totally wrong? For example, in a sub v. Cruiser battle, a sub does a surprise strike and then misses. Can the cruiser fire back?

Am I remembering something from an earlier version/edition of Axis and Allies?

[Panther]

@Stough Sure, the cruiser will fire back if the sub misses. A destroyer “only” cancels special abilities of the enemy submarine(s), such as the surprise strike.

(It was in Revised when a destroyer is needed to enable an enemy sub’s casualty to fire back.)

[Panther]

@ShadowHAwk

What I was pointing out here is the different rules approach:

In Global the enemy destroyer cancels the sub’s ability to conduct a surprise strike. There can’t be any “fire back” from a unit hit by a surprise strike as it does not occur.

In Revised the enemy destroyer does not cancel the “Conduct Opening Fire” step for the submarine. The submarine fires during this step regardless of the presence of an enemy destroyer. The presence of the destroyer only affects the fire back ability of the sub’s opening fire casualties on that side.

In Global the presence of an enemy destroyer directly affects the submarine.
In Revised the presence of an enemy destroyer does not affect the submarine at all.
(This reflects to the strike abilities only.)

[Panther]

@ShadowHAwk

Not only the wording, it is a different background. The role of the destroyer in Revised is different in our discussed context: “The destroyers provided enough advance warning to allow return fire.”

Apart from that I agree: The rules from later games onwards have been worded much clearer and straightforward.

[Cernel]

@ShadowHAwk said in Submarines v. anything that isn't a destroyer:

The effect is exactly the same for destroyers but the wording is just more complex.

Nope. There are at least three substantial differences:

• In Revised, submarines against destroyers still fire before any other units on their same side, so casualties will be chosen before knowing the results of the fire of the other units (this might influence your choices) (this is not actually a difference for a side that has submarines only) (of course, if the defender has both sea and air units, you will have to roll separately for submarines in Global too).

• In Revised, submarines always fire before non-submarines, so casualties will be chosen before knowing the results of the fire of the other units (while in Global defending submarines will fire after all attacking units if the attacking units comprise at least one destroyer).

• In Revised, if the casualties of submarines are other submarines, such casualties will always fire, on the same round of combat, while in Global they will fire only if one or more destroyers a present on their side or no destroyers are present on the opposite side or both.

Here it is an example of the second case:

You have 1 submarine and 1 destroyer attacking 1 submarine alone. The attacking submarine hits.

In Revised, the defending submarine fires back.

In Global, the defending submarine doesn’t fire back.

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@Panther Please check I’m being correct, as I’m not sure.

[Panther]

@Cernel said in Submarines v. anything that isn't a destroyer:

Here it is an example of the second case:
You have 1 submarine and 1 destroyer attacking 1 submarine alone. The attacking submarine hits.

Excellent example, indeed!

In Revised, the defending submarine fires back.

Correct. As by the rules "Both attacking and defending submarines fire in this [Opening Fire] step. If submarines are present on both sides, they are considered to fire simultaneously. "
The attacking destroyer does not affect the defending sub’s Sneak Attack ability.

In Global, the defending submarine doesn’t fire back.

Correct as the attacking destroyer cancels the defending submarine’s Surprise Strike ability.