The Flag discussion

[barney]

It shouldn’t be flown at a state capital. Southern rednecks can fly it on private property all they want.

[General Haig]

Confederate soldiers are American veterans by act of Congress 1958. That is a American veterans flag.

[hkytown1]

I still haven’t told my 8 year-old Dukes of Hazzard loving son that many stores will no longer be selling General Lee merchandise with the flag on the roof. With that announcement, items on eBay that we get usually buy are going through the roof with 20-30 bids!  My son loves the die cast 1/25 scale General. over the last few years, we’ve bought at least four or five of them for like $18, Today, those same cars are auctioning off north of $150!

Gotta take it down now SC. If the General Lee can’t rock it, neither can you. :-D

[Linkon]

Over 2000 years ago, the generic cross was a symbol of oppressive Roman rule.

Somehow the Christians forgave the oppression, overcame it, and then adopted that cross as a symbol, and now, it labels just about every church that I drive by.

The oppressive rules of Dixie slavery were overcome over 150 years ago.
I am not sure if or when the abolitionists will take any symbols from that era to represent the freedom enjoyed by citizens today.

My personally view is against the divisive balkanization of this great country.  That can lead to decades of chaos here, creating refugees, who depart for better countries.  It happened in my grandparents old country, where the communists eventually took over.

Jesus did say there is no impact to love your friends and hate your enemies … such an attitude makes a believer no better than a tax collector, who already loves at that level.  However to LOVE your ENEMIES, that striving is what prepares a believer for perfection, as heaven is perfect, and the Father is perfect.

Maybe the former slaves can take up the generic cross as well…

[HBG]

@Linkon:

Over 2000 years ago, the generic cross was a symbol of oppressive Roman rule.

Somehow the Christians forgave the oppression, overcame it, and then adopted that cross as a symbol, and now, it labels just about every church that I drive by.

The oppressive rules of Dixie slavery were overcome over 150 years ago.
I am not sure if or when the abolitionists will take any symbols from that era to represent the freedom enjoyed by citizens today.

My personally view is against the divisive balkanization of this great country.  That can lead to decades of chaos here, creating refugees, who depart for better countries.  It happened in my grandparents old country, where the communists eventually took over.

Jesus did say there is no impact to love your friends and hate your enemies … such an attitude makes a believer no better than a tax collector, who already loves at that level.  However to LOVE your ENEMIES, that striving is what prepares a believer for perfection, as heaven is perfect, and the Father is perfect.

Maybe the former slaves can take up the generic cross as well…

Amen and well said but sadly we have many like the President of the United States who fans the flame of Racism every chance he gets.

[wheatbeer]

@Gargantua:

Doesn’t the flag of the united states represent 100+ more years of segregation and 100+ years more of slavery than the confederacy?

Flying over country doesn’t automatically make a flag represent every single event within that country for its duration. Symbolism doesn’t work that way, making the question absurd.

Symbols are a purely subjective phenomena which exist exclusively within the mind. They can be contradictory, they can change, and they can disappear. Although they don’t last forever, they can be extremely powerful and evocative.

Clearly one commonly held symbolic meaning of the Confederate flag is white supremacy. It isn’t the only meaning, but lots of people interpret it that way (that includes some people flying it, and some people looking at it).

Certainly you can find individuals who view the US flag in the same way, but the difference largely boils down to popularity of particular symbolic meanings.

[Young Grasshopper]

I wouldn’t touch this flag topic with a 10’ pole :-P

[wheatbeer]

I removed photos from this post because I did not realize that posting non-WWII related photos isn’t permitted under General Discussion.

[wheatbeer]

What do you guys think this flag means to the people in the two photos above?

[LHoffman]

@Imperious:

Lets do this:  The Union starved the Confederates with that blockade which killed millions, so the blockade was by extrapolation an equal evil withslavery.

Let’s say you had to make decisions about who let starve and who to let live. Of course the slaves starve and you can blame the Union for that.

That’s how it works around here.

Hoo hahaha! I get it!  :lol:

[calvinhobbesliker]

I would prefer it not be flying on government property, though I think this is a minor issue compared to the actual racism that still exists here.

[LHoffman]

@wheatbeer:

What do you guys think this flag means to the people in the two photos above?

What do you think the US flag means to the EDIT: Japanese-American US citizens interned here?

Or to the Native Americans on the Trail of Tears.

Garg has a point though. If the CSA flags are seen as evil and associated with slavery, the flag of the United States should be associated with all those same things for an even greater span of time. It is a logical progression for people to move from calling for the removal of Confederate flags to the very flag that flies all over our country now.

Should this flag fly over any level of municipal, state or federal property: no, of course not. If it is part of a state flag (Mississippi), that is a little more complicated matter and there needs to be some historical context considered.

[General Veers]

But there are so many countries with tarnished flags, including Japan’s (as well as the UK, France, etc). Wheatbeer’s photos represent a cultural mindset that the Confederate flag became a part of that was associated with Jim Crow laws and institutional racism that was handed down for generations.

Granted xenophobic Americans will wave US flags as a sign of patriotism but that applies to any country’s conservative base.

[LHoffman]

@General:

But there are so many countries with tarnished flags, including Japan’s (as well as the UK, France, etc). Wheatbeer’s photos represent a cultural mindset that the Confederate flag became a part of that was associated with Jim Crow laws and institutional racism that was handed down for generations.

Granted xenophobic Americans will wave US flags as a sign of patriotism but that applies to any country’s conservative base.

Exactly my point. You condemn one, you pretty much have to condemn them all. At this point it just seems pretty stupid to be arguing over history. Particularly when there are more pertinent issues to deal with in the world.

People are just ignorant and shortsighted about the whole thing.

…Says a middle-class, white, Christian, male with a bachelor’s degree.

I am pretty much screwed from being seen as having a legitimate viewpoint on anything in this country. Other than maybe the National Hockey League.

[barney]

@LHoffman

Where was that picture taken? At first I thought California but those were US citizens not japanese. If they’re japanese hopefully it means they’re thinking we shouldn’t F!CK with the US.  If they’re US citizens they’re probably thinking disappointment at the least.  Anyway they had a nice view.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@barney:

@LHoffman

Where was that picture taken? At first I thought California but those were US citizens not japanese. If they’re japanese hopefully it means they’re thinking we shouldn’t F!CK with the US.  If they’re US citizens they’re probably thinking disappointment at the least.  Anyway they had a nice view.

I think it’s this place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gila_River_War_Relocation_Center

[LHoffman]

@barney:

@LHoffman

Where was that picture taken? At first I thought California but those were US citizens not japanese. If they’re japanese hopefully it means they’re thinking we shouldn’t F!CK with the US.  If they’re US citizens they’re probably thinking disappointment at the least.  Anyway they had a nice view.

Well if you want to get technical about it…

But yes, sorry, my bad. Allow me to edit that. What I meant obviously was Japanese-Americans (who were citizens).  :roll:

[wheatbeer]

@LHoffman:

What do you think the US flag means to the Japanese citizens interned here?

The flag wasn’t raised at that camp as a symbol of hate against the Japanese.

Many interred Japanese-Americans joined the 442nd infantry and fought under the US flag.

I can’t find any evidence that Japanese-Americans then or now commonly (or even uncommonly) found the US flag offensive.

[LHoffman]

Let me first off say that I think we agree on this whole issue, I am just playing devil’s advocate to some degree.

@wheatbeer:

@LHoffman:

What do you think the US flag means to the Japanese citizens interned here?

The flag wasn’t raised at that camp as a symbol of hate against the Japanese.

That said… The flag was not raised as a symbol of hate in 1941-45, but that does not mean that Japanese-Americans could not have made that leap themselves. After all, their being put in the camp was based purely on their race/ethnicity and whatever suspicions they may have engendered to the US government. Their internment was not based on hate per se, but it was certainly an act of discrimination. And I think you could get many people today to equate discrimination with racism and therefore hate, even if shrouded in bureaucracy.

Do you have proof that the Confederate Battle Flag or their state flag was raised as a symbol of hate? I am not sure what, if any, country intends very specifically for their flag to be a symbol of anything negative. As you said, it is all what people make of it or how they associate it or what the government explicitly says it means. Otherwise they are just colored shapes.

@wheatbeer:

Many interred Japanese-Americans joined the 442nd infantry and fought under the US flag.

And there were black slaves who fought for the south. Even if conscripted.

@wheatbeer:

I can’t find any evidence that Japanese-Americans then or now commonly (or even uncommonly) found the US flag offensive.

Again, playing devil’s advocate in suggesting that they easily could have. And I am sure some actually did, even if that is but an assumption.

What about the Native Americans who were killed or displaced from their traditional areas of living because of the United States? Same deal.

[General 6 Stars]

This countries being taken over by a certain groups of people.  :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: