G40 Delta 1st Edition

[Young Grasshopper]

Here is a post from KNP discussing a Commonwealth and a new production unit…

Hey All,
I am going to try this idea out this weekend. I am using the great Delta G40 card deck developed by Young Grasshopper and per his suggestion, it just seems better to have the UK as a single economy. Of course, so to not make the UK too wealthy, I am also using the Commonwealth to include ANZAC, South Africa, West South Africa and all of Canada. Here are the rules I am going with, sort of a mish-mash of ideas from the preceding Commonwealth ideas:
1 > Calcutta is no longer a capital but just a Victory City. Also, the Major IC is now replaced with one of my patented Mid-Level ICs. (Okay, so it’s not really patented, but that just sounded good.) Also, if Calcutta is captured by the Axis, the UK does NOT lose it’s treasury.
2 > I am using ANZAC units for all Commonwealth territories. The UK units in Canada, South Africa and the surrounding sea zones will be replaced with ANZAC units.
3 > The Strategic Objectives for ANZAC will apply to all the Commonwealth. The Strategic Objectives for the UK will still go to the UK. A couple of the SOs sort of cross over but I figure that is okay since the UK and Commonwealth are kind of dependent on one another.
4 > Commonwealth income can be spent at any IC: Canada, Australia and/or South Africa.
5 > Commonwealth is an odd power as it has two capitals: Ottawa and Sydney. If one or the other gets captured by the Axis, all Commonwealth money on hand goes to the capturer but Commonwealth is still in play like normal and may use any or all remaining ICs to produce units. If both Ottawa and Sydney are captured by the Axis, then Commonwealth is out of the game until one or the other is liberated. For City Objective purposes with the Delta G40 rules, I will still treat Ottawa as a victory city rather than a capital. In other words, the capturer only gets 2 IPCs per turn for capturing it instead of 5 IPCs.

I think this is the simplest way to incorporate this idea into the game. I didn’t want to use the rule where if one capital gets captured, then the economy is split from then on because I just think that adds unneeded complexity. I’m excited to see how this goes. I’ll let you guys know.
Thanks to everybody for posting all your ideas. It’s nice to have a lot of choices to pick from and make your game truly your own.

Perhaps we can put all these elements together for 2nd edition.

Here’s what I’m thinking…

The United Kingdom:

The British economy is no longer split between London and Calcutta, instead, the United Kingdom will now collect one income for all territories owned on the map with London as it’s capital. All UK IPCs must be relinquished anytime an enemy power captures London, and the major IC on India is now downgraded to a major factory(see below). Japan will not collect the UK’s IPCs for capturing Calcutta is it no longer a capital city, instead Japan will gain 2 IPCs for activating a minor victory city. Also, due to the new British Commonwealth nation explained below, The United Kingdom’s starting income is now 38 IPCs.

The British Commonwealth:

All territories with an ANZAC and Canadian roundel on them will now be know as the British Commonwealth. This new nation will replace ANZAC in the game round sequence, and their collective 17 IPCs to start the game will now be spent and placed on any Commonwealth IC that the Commonwealth player wishes. All starting units on Canadian territories must be replaced with ANZAC gray pieces, and the initial setup has been modified to include a Commonwealth fighter in Ontario. The British Commonwealth has only 1 achievable national objective which is “5 IPCs for control of all original territories” which may only be collected when at war with both Germany and Japan.

New Production Units: (this is KNPs Mid-Level IC idea with a few of my own modifications)

Industrial Complex:
Produces up to 10 units
Maximum damage 20
Unoperational at 10 damage
Replaces all oob Major ICs in initial setup
May no longer be purchased

Major Factory:
Produces up to 5 units
Maximum damage 10
Unoperational at 5 damage
New unit replacing all oob Minor ICs in initial setup
May not be purchased

Minor Factory:
Produces up to 3 units
Maximum damage 6
Unoperational at 3 damage
May be purchased at a cost of 12 IPCs
May be placed on any territory with an IPC value of 2 or greater.

*****The War Time Production strategic advantage will now boost production of Industrial Complexes to 12, Major Factories to 7, and Minor Factories to 4.
*****All Industrial Complexes, and Major Factories are downgraded to Minor Factories once captured.
*****The Industrial Complex in India is downgraded to a Major Factory.
*****Production facilities may no longer be upgraded from one to the other. (except the 3 Major factories into Industrial Complexes when America enters the war).

A&A 1942 IC pieces as well as Monopoly hotels and houses will work fine.

Industrial Complex = Gray ICs (1942 A&A)
Major Factory = Red Monopoly Hotel (Red for 5)
Minor Factory = Green Monopoly House (Green for 3)

[knp7765]

Hey YG,
So all factories that were Minor ICs at setup are now Major Factories and can produce 5 units. And the only purchasable ICs are the Minor Factories that produce 3. This sounds like a pretty good concept.
You mentioned that there are no upgrades. Does this include when an Industrial Complex or Major Factory gets captured, which downgrades either to a Minor Factory, then gets liberated by the original owner or an ally? In other words, is the original owner no longer allowed to upgrade his/her factory? That seems a little unfair I think. I understand the conquering power not being allowed to upgrade, but I would think the original owner would be able to. Or is this meant to hasten the downfall of the original owner (particularly in the case of Germany or Italy)?
As for what pieces to use, Monopoly pieces sounds like they would work very well. I have a copy of The War Game and I use the large factory pieces for Major ICs/Industrial Complexes. They are color coded to each country except for France. They had no blue large factory so I use the light grey. Also, both Russia and Italy use the dark brown large factories since each only have one Major IC.
For my Mid-Level ICs/Major Factories, I use the city pieces from RISK. They look pretty good. Then I use the OOB A&A grey IC pieces for Minor ICs/Minor Factories.
I’m looking forward to HBG’s Facilities Set. I think those will work out great for all 3 levels of factories. I’m still trying to decide if I should use light grey for all factories or get the national colored ones.

I am curious about your Commonwealth setup and why you didn’t include South Africa in the Commonwealth.

[baron Münchhausen]

@knp7765:

I am curious about your Commonwealth setup and why you didn’t include South Africa in the Commonwealth.

I have the same question.

Very interesting concept about IC, major and minor factory.

Do you think it could be introduce in a 1942.2 game?

[LHoffman]

Whoa, whoa, whoa… time out.

Whose idea is this? I am confused of it is KNP or YG. Ultimately, I suppose that it does not matter, but I find this concept VERY intriguing. Whoever came up with it is to be commended. If other people have suggested Commonwealth ideas before, I have never heard of them.

Let me try explain what I think is going on:

The UK is now separate from her Commonwealth in the turn order. Canada and ANZAC are a single Commonwealth power and take their collective turn in what was formerly ANZAC’s slot.

Some clarifications:

1. Is there a specific reason that India is not included in the Commonwealth? Is the economy for the UK and India now together (units can be placed in any South Africa, England or East India?)

2. Can the UK place units at a Commonwealth factory/IC or use its money to repair them or their bases?

3. Does this necessitate a revision to the DELTA card scheme? Does the Commonwealth benefit from UK Strategic Advantages/Progressive Advantages/Tech?

The factory/IC concept is also interesting. I like it. Still wrapping my head around it though. Does G40 actually have the rule that you cannot build Major IC (10 unit production) in non-original territories? I know it was bandied about but I don’t think I have played that way if it is in fact a rule.

[Witt]

The Major IC rule was changed in the Second Edition, Hoffman.
India’s income  is included in the UK’s to strengthen UK’s position and to hold off a Sealion. (Awfully dangerous  water creatures, I know.)
UK and Commonwealth incomes are separate, like Anzac’s was.

[Young Grasshopper]

Just some quick points before I head to work…

• I am open to the idea of original owners upgrading factories, how much $ from minor to major, major to IC, and minor to IC?

• The idea of a commonwealth has been around since the conception of the 1939 Global War variant, different people have different ideas.

• For some, the idea of a single UK economy may be to strong for the allies, so there exists the idea to remove Canada from the UKs income to reduce it. My concern is if you include South Africa and India, the Uk won’t have any ICs to place units on, and therefore not much fun to play.

• The concept of a mid-level IC that produces 5 units has always been KNPs idea and I’ve always stated so, I didn’t like the terms…

Major IC
Mid Level IC
Minor IC

My ideas to modify were…

Industrial Complex
Major Factory
Minor Factory

…and replace all the minor ICs in the setup to Major Factories.

[General 6 Stars]

Yes can’t wait to see your outcome YG. Might be something to try in Global 39 game.

[LHoffman]

@wittmann:

The Major IC rule was changed in the Second Edition, Hoffman.

Thanks Wittman. I thought so, but I have not played that way to my knowledge.

@Young:

• The idea of a commonwealth has been around since the conception of the 1939 Global War variant, different people have different ideas.

Wow, I feel like I am behind the times then.

[Young Grasshopper]

KNP has bought a deck and has been a great contributor, so when he said that he was gonna house rule a Commonwealth and a mid level factory into his Delta games, I thought that we should make it official.

[knp7765]

@LHoffman:

Whoa, whoa, whoa… time out.

Whose idea is this? I am confused of it is KNP or YG. Ultimately, I suppose that it does not matter, but I find this concept VERY intriguing. Whoever came up with it is to be commended. If other people have suggested Commonwealth ideas before, I have never heard of them.

Let me try explain what I think is going on:

The UK is now separate from her Commonwealth in the turn order. Canada and ANZAC are a single Commonwealth power and take their collective turn in what was formerly ANZAC’s slot.

Some clarifications:

1. Is there a specific reason that India is not included in the Commonwealth? Is the economy for the UK and India now together (units can be placed in any South Africa, England or East India?)

2. Can the UK place units at a Commonwealth factory/IC or use its money to repair them or their bases?

3. Does this necessitate a revision to the DELTA card scheme? Does the Commonwealth benefit from UK Strategic Advantages/Progressive Advantages/Tech?

The factory/IC concept is also interesting. I like it. Still wrapping my head around it though. Does G40 actually have the rule that you cannot build Major IC (10 unit production) in non-original territories? I know it was bandied about but I don’t think I have played that way if it is in fact a rule.

Hey LHoffman,
I came up with the idea of a Mid-Level IC to have something in between Majors and Minors. YG upgraded the concept and I must say I am really liking it. Especially the idea that the only ones that are purchasable are the Minor IC/Factories. That makes more sense to me as you are in the middle of a Global scale war so you can’t go and build a big industrial complex or even a Major factory in a recently conquered territory. However, a smaller factory is plausible.
Like wittmann said, they changed the rule for Major ICs so to keep stuff like the US capturing Norway and plopping a Major IC there to totally overwhelm Germany from happening.
Also, like YG said, there have been various ideas for a Commonwealth for some time. Some have even had the idea of a separate Canada and even South Africa as a separate power. I think doing all of that just breaks up the UK into too many little powers and would be a big benefit for the Axis.
I have mostly been paying attention to the more recent ideas that have come about with YG’s G40 Delta idea.

[LHoffman]

@knp7765:

Hey LHoffman,
I came up with the idea of a Mid-Level IC to have something in between Majors and Minors. YG upgraded the concept and I must say I am really liking it. Especially the idea that the only ones that are purchasable are the Minor IC/Factories. That makes more sense to me as you are in the middle of a Global scale war so you can’t go and build a big industrial complex or even a Major factory in a recently conquered territory. However, a smaller factory is plausible.

Agreed and I like the direction that you have both taken it. Even the “factory” and “industrial complex” distinction is more than just semantics… it really sounds correct.

@knp7765:

Like wittmann said, they changed the rule for Major ICs so to keep stuff like the US capturing Norway and plopping a Major IC there to totally overwhelm Germany from happening.

Yeah, I used to frequent the G40 board a lot more and that was a topic of discussion. So I do remember that now.

@knp7765:

Also, like YG said, there have been various ideas for a Commonwealth for some time. Some have even had the idea of a separate Canada and even South Africa as a separate power. I think doing all of that just breaks up the UK into too many little powers and would be a big benefit for the Axis.
I have mostly been paying attention to the more recent ideas that have come about with YG’s G40 Delta idea.

I prefer to keep the number of Powers as minimal as is reasonably possible in the G40 game… otherwise I think it muddles it up a bit much and slows it down. Been a while since I have read about the latest GW1939 revision, but if it is like it used to be there were a number of minor powers to control. I personally do not prefere that method, which is why the Commonwealth idea really struck me as a very good compromise between accuracy and playability. I like the idea and am interested to see where it goes.

[Young Grasshopper]

I have added the following to the post 1 rule document in the optional rules section…

The United Kingdom:

The British economy is no longer split between London and Calcutta, instead, the United Kingdom will now collect one income for all territories owned on the map with London as it’s capital. All UK IPCs must be relinquished anytime an enemy power captures London, and the major IC on India is now downgraded from an Industrial Complex to a major factory. Japan will gain 2 IPCs for activating Calcutta, but they will not collect the UK’s IPCs as Calcutta is no longer a capital city. The United Kingdom has only 1 achievable national objective which is “5 IPCs for control of Gibraltar, Egypt, India, and Malaya”, which they may collect even if they’re not at war with Japan. Also, due to the new British Commonwealth nation explained below, The United Kingdom’s starting income is now 38 IPCs.

The British Commonwealth:

All territories with an ANZAC and Canadian roundel on them will now be know as the British Commonwealth. This new nation will replace ANZAC in the game round sequence, and their collective 17 IPCs to start the game will now be spent and placed on any Commonwealth factory that the Commonwealth player wishes. All British baige starting units on Canadian territories must now be replaced with ANZAC gray pieces, and the initial setup has been modified to remove a Commonwealth fighter from New Zealand, and to add a Commonwealth fighter in Ontario.

The British Commonwealth has only 1 achievable national objective which is “5 IPCs for control of all original territories” which may only be collected when at war with both Germany and Japan. The Commonwealth nation does not have a capital, therefore an enemy may not take all Commonwealth IPCs if they capture either Ottawa or Sydney. The Commonwealth may continue to collect an income from their territories remaining on the board even if either Ottawa or Sydney are captured, however, the Commonwealth may not collect an income if both are under enemy control.

New Production Units:

Industrial Complex:
Produces up to 10 units
Maximum damage 20
Unoperational at 10 damage
Replaces all Major ICs in the initial setup
May not be purchased

Major Factory:
Produces up to 5 units
Maximum damage 10
Unoperational at 5 damage
New unit which replaces all Minor ICs in the initial setup
May not be purchased, or upgraded

Minor Factory:
Produces up to 3 units
Maximum damage 6
Unoperational at 3 damage
May be purchased at a cost of 12 IPCs
May be placed on any territory with an IPC value of 2 or greater.
May be upgraded to a Major factory for 10 IPCs (must be the original owner of the territory)

*All Industrial Complexes, and Major Factories are downgraded to Minor Factories once captured.
*The Industrial Complex in India is downgraded to a Major Factory to begin the game.
*The only Production facility upgrade that may be made is from a Minor Factory to a Major factory at a cost of 10 IPCs, and may only be upgraded by the original owner of the territory.

Important: If you wish to play with the above modifications, the War Time Production Card must read “All production units may now produce 1 extra unit each”, the Commonweath Aid strategic objective must now read “All units placed on production facilities anywhere other than London are now 1 IPC cheaper”, and all UK and ANZAC strategic objectives are now replaced with those noted in the optional rule descriptions.

[Young Grasshopper]

I have play tested the above modifications with a friend (the UK single economy, and Canada / Anzac Commonwealth without new production units), with the only complaint being the downgraded major IC to a minor in India (new production units will help with those complaints).

Here are a few things I really like about this Commonwealth mechanic…

• With a single UK income, the removal of the Canadian territories will dilute the UK economy a little, but not to much.

• With the Canadian territories having Canadian emblems on them and not British, it’s almost as if the map was made for this idea.

• The alternative British roundel once used to track UK pacific income can now easily be used to track the Commonwealth income.

• With the ANZAC and Canadian incomes as well as production options combined, the Allies have more freedom to buy more significant units on either the Europe side, or the Pacific side.

• Although I’m gonna paint my plastic ICs blue for Industrial Complexes, red for Major Factories, and green for Minor Factories… monopoly hotels and houses could also work well.

• Having colored production units will help players associate the max amount of units allowable for each facility (blue for 10 units on an Industrial Complex, red for 5 units on a Major Factory, and green for 3 units on a Minor Factory).

• Very easy to now play a 7 player game… Germany / Russia / Japan / America / Commonwealth with China / Britain with France / Italy.

[Black_Elk]

I look forward to checking out the Delta Deck. Even though I frequently harp on added rules, NOs, complexity and the like, there is something about a deck, the physicality of it and the feel of a card in your hand, that just totally trumps a big long list of expansion rules written down somewhere. From a gameplay perspective, objective or advantage type rules are the most fun when built into the play, and nice clean deck seems like it would facilitate this better than just some pages in a rulebook, or a chart somewhere. Well done

[Young Grasshopper]

I had to remove a lot of the intro to the first post due to the maximum limit of 20,000 characters per post. I also removed the link to the artscow card deck due to some significant changes to 1st edition. If you would still like to own a 1st edition card deck, I can guide you to it, but I’m now encouraging members to wait until the 2nd edition card deck. For those who have a first edition card deck, please adjust your use of them in line with the latest modifications.

Cheers,

[Black_Elk]

I swooped on a 1st ed deck last night just to check it out and support the concept of expansion decks. Will grab the second edition when it comes together, to see how it works with the latest production schemes and canzac  :-D

Looking forward to it

[Witt]

• With the Canadian territories having Canadian emblems on them and not British, it’s almost as if the map was made for this idea.

Totally agree. Someone up there wanted this to happen!

[General 6 Stars]

YG, you ever get a chance to try your new commonwealth rules in your game past weekend?

[Young Grasshopper]

@SS:

YG, you ever get a chance to try your new commonwealth rules in your game past weekend?

Yes we did, it worked out very well however, even though the UK player had a bigger stack of cash, there was a lot of complaining about only being able to build 3 units on India. Since then I have implemented KNP’s idea of a new mid level production unit which has solved the problem. Here is a link to the same rules as a stand alone rule set for 2nd edition outside of Delta…

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34111.0

[General 6 Stars]

Not trying to go off topic, but in tigermans 39 game you can build up to 6 units ( minor factory) but the first 3 pieces you buy have to be infrantry. Makes sense to make India’s factory a major. I am going to try this new commonwealth in 39 game. But will be posting in global war from now on or house rules under new topic.