Just like to say that there is a Star Wars “Risk” edition.
Perhaps I could swap some FW190 from my AA1941 to Tie Fighters?
Star Wars Lives!
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@CWO:
Precisely. The movie opened with me going “Huh?” at the “Episode V” part and the movie ended with me going “Huh?” when the end credits abruptly appeared without the story being resolved. It was a very puzzling experience, and to be honest I felt a lingering dissatisfaction with Empire for many years afterwards, even after Jedi came out and wrapped up the story.
Empire Strikes Back is considered the greatest Star Wars film precisely because of its darker/grittier tone, somewhat complex plot (for Star Wars) and franchise defining reveal/twist. When I was younger I couldn’t appreciate the more nuanced nature of the film, I recognized the action scenes mostly. Empire has some of the best and worst moments of Star Wars. I too still find the film’s pacing to be atrocious and choppy. It starts out with a bang and then very quickly becomes mired in a (literal) bog of boringness and exposition. Much of this exposition and character development is critical to the story and has its place, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is a total slog that is never really remedied. Even the Cloud City climax is somewhat ponderous and dark. Again, not totally bad, but it also seems to drag.
Reminds me of reading the Frodo and Sam portion of the Two Towers… You are in a maze or rocks and gullies, then a swamp, then a dark stairway, then a dark hole in the ground… It is a very boring drag, albeit with much important information.
@CWO:
I tended to think of it as the low point of a V-shaped trilogy. It was only later, when I re-watched the three films on video, that I gradually cane to appreciate it more. I admit that I still tend to fast-forward through the Dagobah sequences, which aren’t really to my taste, but the rest of the film is first-rate. Just last evening, in fact, I re-watched the Battle of Hoth section of the film, which in my opinion is very successful from a cinematic point of view. It features imaginative and awe-inspiring technology, i.e. the Imperial Walkers, and rapid, exciting action – but at the same time, it’s careful to keep the action clear and coherent. The editing is brisk, with some shots lasting only a couple of seconds, but even at the height of the action there’s never any doubt about what’s going on. An excellent example is the sequence in which Luke runs under an AT-AT and destroys it single-handedly: the sequence comprises about half-a-dozen shots packed into twenty or thirty seconds, but it holds together perfectly and the rapid (but careful) editing creates high excitement without any confusion. There’s even a one-second shot that shows Luke unclipping his climbing line after he’s tossed an explosive into the hull of the machine, and a barely-longer shot that shows him dropping to the ground: just enough to give you the required information to understand what happened, but without a moment of waste. The longest part of the whole sequence – perhaps a whole ten seconds long – is the three-shot payoff that shows the AT-AT blowing up and keeling over to the ground and that gives the audience the opportunity to cheer (silently or otherwise) in triumph. Contrast this with, let’s say, the battles in Revenge of the Sith, which seem to emphasize sensory overload and frenetic speed rather than coherence.
What you point out here echos yet another article I read last week: http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-george-awakens
It is a well written article, even though I disagree with calling Lucas a “Tolkien-level master” (at worldbuilding); there are few, if any who approach Tolkien. And for at least a couple reasons I could name offhand, Lucas is not one of those, good as he was.
Anyway, the main gist of the article points out that Lucas is far better as a film editor than a director. In fact, he has always considered himself more comfortable sitting in front of the cutting room TV than behind the camera directing. The writer says that this is evident in the woodenness of much dialogue and acting at many points in Ep I - VI.
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The writer says that this is evident in the woodenness of much dialogue and acting at many points in Ep I - VI.
I once saw a screen test for the original Star Wars movie in which Harrison Ford and Mark Hammil were reading lines to each other. The Luke character at one point is saying something about the Empire that (thankfully) never made it into the final film; I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was some sort of remark about the shaky basis for the Empire’s power, and hence about its ultimate vulnerability. The dialogue was incredibly leaden, clunky and convoluted. Harrison Ford – perhaps in reference to that part of the script – once told George Lucas, “George, you can write this **** but you can’t get people to say it.”
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Dagobah is a slog in many ways, but I enjoy the mysticism attached to Yoda’s teaching of the force, culminating in the chill-inducing X-wing scene. By contrast, almost every reference to the force in TFA feels contrived and weak, with too much emphasis on “light side” and “dark side” for convenient storytelling purposes.
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Dagobah is a slog in many ways, but I enjoy the mysticism attached to Yoda’s teaching of the force, culminating in the chill-inducing X-wing scene. By contrast, almost every reference to the force in TFA feels contrived and weak, with too much emphasis on “light side” and “dark side” for convenient storytelling purposes.
I suppose that it could have been worse: the new movie might have referred to the “right side” and “wrong side” of the Force. I cringe at the thought.
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the hate rushes through the pores of all these 40+ year old fanboys. They are very susceptible to the dark side….
Hm, I am happy for my friends who like the movie, or find it entertaining. No need to call them xy fanboys myself because of that. Or can you not accept that people dont like what you like?
And for many people who are not happy about the new movie, I daresay its not because they revere IV, V or VI so much, but are likely to be a lot through the EU (expanded universe) and have more background, and therefore also more expectations and questions (not that all of EU has been good, the opposite really with some things imho, but much was; and it all was canon until recently, so no one could dismiss it, even if just going by the movies is certainly enough to love Star Wars). Now no way a movie can (or, nowadays, want to) fill those gaps, I appreciate that. Grudgingly. But I cant just blend out the possibilities and love it because its Star Wars and the whole earthball says “enjoy”. Compared to the gigantic promotion machinery, media coverage and people who like the movie, the few people Gamerman calls hateful 40+ fanboys should be easy to stomach. I think its the dark side to attack them personally as hateful while those people criticise the movie, not its fans; there might be some who condescend, sure, but most dont, I dont). I think when people with other movies or series call for more or point out whats not so good (everyone does, come on), they get a lot less fire for that. Because Star Wars creates passion (I see that in every game store nowadays when the movie is discussed), and that again ties both groups together, both feel subjectively and ardently for it in some way.
In any case, I feel that with this unparalleled merchandising and money making of every aspect, in every supermarket, they owe more substance. I know it likely wont happen, but there is hope still. It really cant be otherwise.
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alexgreat, my personal devil’s advocate
Man, you misunderstand me on a regular basis :lol: Something’s lost in the culture differences
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@alexgreat:
But I cant just blend out the possibilities and love it because its Star Wars and the whole earthball says “enjoy”.
This is an amazing quote! I love it. I am completely serious.
Alex - not speaking English endows you with a uniquely expressive dialect. I for one appreciate your genius.
@alexgreat:
In any case, I feel that with this unparalleled merchandising and money making of every aspect, in every supermarket, they owe more substance. I know it likely wont happen, but there is hope still. It really cant be otherwise.
This is something that has been on my mind also. I don’t know if it really is different this time or if I was simply too young back in 2003-2005 to notice the marketing for the prequel trilogy. The merchandising for Force Awakens has been utterly insane. It was/is everywhere. Every single Christmas commercial seemed to have either a callout to Star Wars or people using Star Wars toys/clothes as subject props. Star Wars was in car commercials, jewelry ads, Subway, Campbell’s soup… it was literally everywhere. I could no longer tell what advertising was being paid for and who was advertising Star Wars merchandise of their own accord because everyone else was doing it and they thought it was a selling point.
I should not be surprised, considering the history of Star Wars merchandising, but this just felt ridiculous. Part of that was the feeling of “why are they trying so hard?” It’s not like people don’t know Star Wars is coming out. Does all that constant advertising browbeat even non-Star Wars fans into feeling like they have to see the movie to stay culturally relevant? Needless to say, I am not a fan of the over-the-top advertising.
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I should not be surprised, considering the history of Star Wars merchandising, but this just felt ridiculous. Part of that was the feeling of “why are they trying so hard?”
Perhaps because the movies themselves have come to be seen by the studios as simply giant-scale commercials for the merchandise and the marketing rights, which are no longer just (to quote the Mel Brooks films Spaceballs) spin-off products “where the real money from the movie is made” but rather are now (arguably) the main products for which the films simply provide the set-up. Case in point: when I went to see The Force Awakens, the theatre – knowing it had a captive audience, and which had probably been paid handsomely by advertisers – showed twice as many pre-movie commercials as it normally does. Twelve commercials, in fact, not counting the movie preview trailers. The film’s advertised start time was 2:30, but it actually only got under way at 2:55, after almost half-an-hour of ads and trailers. Watching commercials for tree on TV is bad enough; paying to watch commercials in a theatre is even worse; and paying to watch twice as many commercials as usual is positively infuriating.
An early anticipation of the Mel Brooks joke above (which I found funny at the time, but which I found less funny as I realized that it had turned into reality) is a joke that was used on the 1960s spy spoof TV series Get Smart, which was finally released on DVD a couple of years ago. The good guys, Max and Agent 99, are in a Chinese laundry confronting the two bad guys, The Claw and his huge, muscular sidekick Bobo (who is as strong as an ox and just about as dumb). Max states that he has figured out that The Claw is using the laundry as a front from which he operates a spy ring. Bobo comments, “Actually, the spy ring is the front. The real money is in the laundry.” The Claw leans forward and says to Max in a low voice, “The less he knows, the better.” Given saturation marketing campaign we’ve seen around The Force Awakes, however, I’ve started thinking that maybe Bobo was right all along.
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Here is a Star Wars question: If you were Mace Windu and discovered that Palpatine was the Sith Lord, and had your choice of any three Clone War era Jedi at your side for the confrontation, who would you choose?
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None. The fact that the three Jedi who confronted Palpatine at Mace Windu’s side were quickly killed isn’t a problem because Windu subsequently defeated Palpatine in single combat – and not just once, but twice. The real problem was that Windu didn’t kill Palpatine immediately after defeating him on each occasion. One can perhaps make allowances for the first time, given that Windu defeated him pretty handily in a straightforward lightsaber duel – even if you consider the fact that Palpatine was skillful enough at swordfighting to kill three Jedi in a few seconds in a one-against-four fight. But in the second confrontation between them, Windu barely survived Palpatine’s force-lightning attack (and doesn’t even seem to have anticipated that Palpatine might be able to attack him in this way)…so when he finally escaped by the barest of margins and once again got an opportunity to dispose of such an incredibly dangerous enemy, the sensible thing would have been to take no chances and kill him at once. Instead, Windu started making long-winded editorial comments that were transparently meant (from a scriptwriting point of view) to give Anakin the time and the motivation to turn against Windu and thus provide Palpatine with a chance to gleefully catapult him to his death.
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I really like that answer
I do have one question - wasn’t Windu really worried about what would happen if he had privately killed Palpatine with pretty much no witnesses? Didn’t everything he believed in, scream against an execution like that? Didn’t he hope for a trial?
(I don’t remember what he was saying while he had Palpatine on his back gasping for air)
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Veritas, my kids and I LOVED that SNL clip!!!
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As Harry Plinkett wondered aloud in his Attack of the Clones review, why didn’t the Jedi Council request blood tests of senators if they were afraid a Sith was pulling strings there?
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I don’t think they were, that’s why. Yes they felt the Sith were returning, but didn’t necessarily suspect senators.
Wasn’t one of Sidious’ special force powers of the dark side some kind of cloaking and mind control? I think a bigger Star Wars fan than me told me that years ago…. I’ll let you guys tell me where I’m wrong -
I really like that answer
I do have one question - wasn’t Windu really worried about what would happen if he had privately killed Palpatine with pretty much no witnesses? Didn’t everything he believed in, scream against an execution like that? Didn’t he hope for a trial?Â
(I don’t remember what he was saying while he had Palpatine on his back gasping for air)
The answer I’d give would be in three parts. First, there actually was a witness present (Anakin). Second, towards the tail end of his foolishly long editorial comments, Windu himself states that he’s comes to the conclusion that Palpatine is too dangerous to be left alive (a conclusion which, frankly, he should have reached a lot sooner). Third, I seriously doubt that the Jedi Code of Fair Fighting (or whatever they use) says anything along the lines of: “If, in the course of mortal combat with a dangerous enemy who is clearly trying to kill him and who is even using an illegitimate weapon like force lighting against him, a Jedi who is fighting for his life manages to overpower his adversary while scrupulously respecting the rules of fair play, he shall immediately cease combat rather than killing the said adversary.” I don’t think the Jedi would have lasted very long as the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, let alone for a thousand generations, under those rules of engagements.
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I don’t think they were, that’s why. Yes they felt the Sith were returning, but didn’t necessarily suspect senators.
Wasn’t one of Sidious’ special force powers of the dark side some kind of cloaking and mind control? I think a bigger Star Wars fan than me told me that years ago…. I’ll let you guys tell me where I’m wrongCount Dooku informs Obi-Wan in “Attack of Clones” that the Sith Lord has control of the Senate, but I guess Obi-Wan presumed he was being deceived.
If you haven’t yet seen the “Clone Wars” show on Netflix (set b/w the events of Eps 2 and 3), it has its moments. Ironically, George Lucas’ vision for the prequels (of fleshed-out, morally ambiguous characters) may have been best realized in this animated format.
Particularly the Season 5 arc involving Darth Maul and Deathwatch (SO5E01, S05E14-16) and the Season 6 arc involving Order 66 (S06E01-04) are worth checking out.
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Thanks for the answer, Marc, but I didn’t like it so much……
Sure, volatile untrustworthy Anakin was a witness. Big help.
Yes Windu said he’s too dangerous to be left alive, but his actions showed that he didn’t really believe what he was saying.
Jedi Code of fair fighting? I, with all due respect, think that point is kind of ridiculous. This wasn’t just any situation. It was the long time leader of the known universe. You can’t just kill him with only Anakin Skywalker, who is also a long time Jedi, as the only witness. (Although it came to the point where he had to, in self defense)I think Windu was torn apart and had a hard time thinking the whole time. His world was rocked. And he was trying to kill him toward the end, he had finally made up his mind, when he was betrayed by Anakin. And I HATE the blind trust he gave Anakin there despite all the reasons he had to NOT trust him, and I HATE that Yoda is so impotent in all the first 3 episodes, with all the reverence he receives. Can we agree that if you think very much, a lot of stuff falls apart?
How could Yoda EVER prevent the Sith from taking over when he seems to be totally unable to fight offensively?? How could Luke ever prevail without going into crazy attack mode? Midiclorians? Force? You’ve got to be kidding me. I enjoy Star Wars a lot when I just go with it and don’t think too hard, because it’s all completely ridiculous when you think about it. Everyone knows English all over the galaxies? You can breathe air on any planet without aid, including Mustafar? lol the list could go on and on
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As far as not killing Sidious fast enough - um, that works both ways. How about the execution in Episode II? Doesn’t Dooku know the full abilities of Obi-Wan and company? He should. How does that seriously fail? Obviously, the answer to all of these questions is, the writer of fiction has total control and makes whatever happen they want to happen to try and tell a good story. Why do the bad guys always give a big speech and not just kill the good guy? Makes me want to stop watching movies :lol:
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As far as not killing Sidious fast enough - um, that works both ways. How about the execution in Episode II? Doesn’t Dooku know the full abilities of Obi-Wan and company? He should. How does that seriously fail? Obviously, the answer to all of these questions is, the writer of fiction has total control and makes whatever happen they want to happen to try and tell a good story. Why do the bad guys always give a big speech and not just kill the good guy? Makes me want to stop watching movies :lol:
In the movie it seems like Sidious is actually in control of the situation and is using it to force Skywalker to betray the Jedi and become his apprentice. This would be consistent with Sidious being powerful enough to deceive Yoda and Windu for years.
On the other hand Sidious seems to have been injured during the confrontation with Windu. It’s not clear whether Sidious’ appearance had already been twisted by the dark side prior to the the battle with Windu (meaning his appearance as Palpatine was artifice) or if the injuries from the battle with Windu disfigured him.
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