Global 2nd edition Q+A ( AAG40.2)

[Seador]

I don’t like calling a rule question a conflicting rule, so instead I’m going to ask which rule to follow in the following situation.  This question revolves around the following two rules:
retreat rule - condition B “Move all attacking land and sea units in that combat that are on the battle strip to a single adjacent friendly
space from which at least 1 of the attacking land or sea units moved. In the case of sea units, that space must have been friendly at the start of the turn. All such units must retreat together to the same territory or sea zone, regardless of where they came from.” (Europe pg 20)

and the Canal rule, “If your side (but not necessarily your power) controlled a canal or narrow strait at the start of your turn, you may move sea units through it” + “Exception: Submarines of any power may pass through the Strait of Gibraltar regardless of which power controls it.” (Europe pg 9)

German fleet attacks Allied fleet based in 91.  They bring a surface fleet from West Germany, plus a sub fleet from the Med.  z92 is friendly, eliminating that requirement of Retreat.

Does the retreat rule, “All such units must retreat together to the same territory or sea zone, regardless of where they came from” override the Canal rule, “If your side … controlled a canal or narrow strait at the start of your turn, you may move sea units through it” and allow a power to slingshot through Gibraltar?

[knp7765]

No. Even in retreats, you still have to follow the canals/straights rule. In this case, ALL German ships, including the subs from the Med, would have to retreat together to a sea zone that any of the German surface fleet came from out in the Atlantic (I’m guessing SZ 104).
You can’t use this retreat rule to slip a German fleet into the Med past an Allied controlled Gibraltar. However, this would be a good way to get the German subs out of the Med into the Atlantic if that were your aim.

[Seador]

I’m inclined to agree with your interpretation, the rule book is generally restricted unless proscribed rather than permissive unless denyed.

As for your second comment:  of course not!  I expect to win the battle.

[gamerman01]

Great question, PG, and I recall it has been asked and answered by Krieghund before.  However, it was a long time ago so may be difficult to find.

I am actually not sure of the official answer off the top of my head.  I will try a search.
When you can’t figure out a rule for sure from the rule book, it’s best to just ask, as you have  :-)

[gamerman01]

@Krieghund:

Surface ships may not move through the Strait of Gibraltar unless Gibraltar was controlled by a friendly power at the beginning of the turn.  Retreating is a type of movement, therefore surface ships may not retreat through the Strait of Gibraltar unless Gibraltar was controlled by a friendly power at the beginning of the turn.  Since all sea units must retreat together, if there are attacking surface ships remaining in the battle any subs forfeit the ability to retreat throught the strait.

OK, that wasn’t hard…  :-)
Love the search function - pity everyone doesn’t have it for some unknown reason

Boy, was I right about “a long time ago”  :wink:  More than 3 years!
Great question, PGMatt

[Jennifer]

Page 20 of 44 of the PDF:

Before the general sea battle takes place, both attacking and defending submarines can choose to either make a Surprise Strike die roll or submerge.

Attacking or defending submarines that choose to submerge are immediately removed from the battle strip and returned to the game board in the contested sea zone, removing them from the remaining battle sequences.

The way I read it, you can choose to submerge your submarines after removing defender casualties from the battle strip, but before making a decision on attack or retreat.

This way, your surface ships will be in a different sea zone from your submarines.  The downside is that your submarines are immediately out of the battle, therefore they don’t get to step 6 and cannot retreat themselves.  So you wouldn’t be able to retreat to two different sea zones (which is expressly prevented by the rules as pointed out above.)  But you COULD if you wanted, split the fleet.  I guess if you had submarines in a convoy zone it might matter, but I doubt there’d be a huge need to do this.

[Krieghund]

@Cmdr:

The way I read it, you can choose to submerge your submarines after removing defender casualties from the battle strip, but before making a decision on attack or retreat.

It doesn’t work that way.  Subs submerge at the beginning of the combat round, in step 2, before any dice are rolled.  In order the rest of the fleet to retreat and leave the subs behind, the subs would need to submerge and sit out the entire last round of combat.

[Jennifer]

@Krieghund:

@Cmdr:

The way I read it, you can choose to submerge your submarines after removing defender casualties from the battle strip, but before making a decision on attack or retreat.

It doesn’t work that way.  Subs submerge at the beginning of the combat round, in step 2, before any dice are rolled.  In order the rest of the fleet to retreat and leave the subs behind, the subs would need to submerge and sit out the entire last round of combat.

Worded funny then.  The way it is written implies submarines can choose to stay and fight or submerge at anytime before the general sea battle takes place (the general sea battle being from the time attacking dice are rolled to the time casualties are removed or steps 3 through 5.)

Good to get it cleared up.

[Gigeneral]

In second edition Pacific rulebook, it says that defending subs get a surprise strike if no attacking destroyers are present. Is this correct, and did it change from the first edition? Also if correct, are attacking casualties removed before they can attack?

Can an escorting destroyer ignore an enemy sub in a sea zone where the escorted transport wants to perform an amphibious assault?

Also for an amphibious assault, can an aircraft carrier act as an escort to avoid battle with an enemy sub?

[gamerman01]

@Gigeneral:

In second edition Pacific rulebook, it says that defending subs get a surprise strike if no attacking destroyers are present. Is this correct

Yes, this is correct

, and did it change from the first edition?

No, that was not a change from 1st edition

Also if correct, are attacking casualties removed before they can attack?

YES, they are.

Can an escorting destroyer ignore an enemy sub in a sea zone where the escorted transport wants to perform an amphibious assault?

YES there is no requirement to attack.  Note that a submarine is adequate to escort as well.  Watch out for scrambling, which would force combat.

Also for an amphibious assault, can an aircraft carrier act as an escort to avoid battle with an enemy sub?

Yes.  Any warship, even a carrier with no attack value

[captainwalker]

Is flying over the Turkish Straits considered to be flying over a neutral country?

[Krieghund]

Air units can pass freely between sea zones 99 and 100 regardless of Turkey’s status.

[captainwalker]

Thanks for the quick respnse Krieghund!

[Jennifer]

@Gamerman01:

Also for an amphibious assault, can an aircraft carrier act as an escort to avoid battle with an enemy sub?

Yes.  Any warship, even a carrier with no attack value

note, however, that again, you need to watch out for scrambles.  The carrier might neuter the defending submarine forcing it to allow the convoy through, but it has no attack value so a scramble will still turn back and possibly sink the carrier and convoy.

In these cases, I find destroyers to be nice.  Of course, I have not actually PLAYED the game in the last 4-6 weeks….I miss my home gaming group (sob.) lol

[Centurio]

The Situation:

Turn 4
Japan has a fleet in SZ 19:
2 dd,  2 cruiser, 7 subs, 3 Carrier with 3 Fighter and 3 Tac Bomber, and 2 Trannys not loaded
4 Infs + 3 Aris in Manchuria

USA: Move in NCM; 1 Sub to SZ 19:

Question:
In Turn 5 in the Combat phase, can Japan load the 2 Trannys in SZ 19 with the 2 infs + 2 aris from Manchurai and move to SZ 36 ?
Is not the seazone hostile because of the US Sub there? And in an hostile seazone i cant load trannys?
Was a transporter involved in a fight, he can be neither load nor offload?

[gamerman01]

Yes, Japan can load the transports that are in Z19 and move to Z36 - subs do not prevent loading transports.

It takes an enemy SURFACE WARship to make the seazone hostile.

Regarding your last question, once a transport is involved in a fight, it is done for the turn and cannot load or offload UNLESS this fight was in the seazone that the transport is unloading units from in an amphibious assault (although the ground units are unloaded from the transport to the territory in the combat movement phase, before the conduct combat phase).

So in your example, say you loaded one transport and moved it to Z36 in the combat movement phase but did not move the other transport away from Z19 and you attacked the sub.  Then the transport would be necessarily involved in the Z19 combat with the sub, and as such could not load or move in the noncombat phase.  If you don’t want the transport to be stuck in Z19, you may move it in the combat movement phase.  However, you can NOT load units in the combat movement phase and move the transport away from Z19 if you are not also unloading those units in an amphibious assault.  So the USA sub does cause some issues, but it does not prevent you from loading units in the combat movement phase and moving to another zone to conduct an amphibious assault.

[Centurio]

@Gamerman01:

However, you can NOT load units in the combat movement phase and move the transport away from Z19 if you are not also unloading those units in an amphibious assault.  So the USA sub does cause some issues, but it does not prevent you from loading units in the combat movement phase and moving to another zone to conduct an amphibious assault.

Thanks Gamerman for your detailed Explanation!  :-)

The Situation that i describe is from a replay.

I understand you correctly, or please correct me again, Japan can load the transports in the Combat phase only if it then performs an amphibious attack with the infs and aris on them?
Japan cannot load in the Combat Phase and move the Transport to SZ 36 and offload them in the NCM Phase to Kwangsi which is Japanese territory? Because excatly that happens in the replay and i was wondering that TripleA allows this!

[gamerman01]

@Centurio:

I understand you correctly, or please correct me again, Japan can load the transports in the Combat phase only if it then performs an amphibious attack with the infs and aris on them?

That’s right, IF Japan is attacking the USA submarine.  Any transport(s) in Z19 at the time of combat with the submarine will be INVOLVED in this combat, and therefore cannot load or move in the non-combat phase.
I should have been clearer with this part.
If Japan does NOT attack the submarine, the transports CAN load and move and unload in the noncombat phase.
What Japan can’t do is attack the submarine and then load transports in the noncombat movement phase.
Also, if you load units in the combat movement phase, you cannot unload them in the noncombat movement phase.

Japan cannot load in the Combat Phase and move the Transport to SZ 36 and offload them in the NCM Phase to Kwangsi which is Japanese territory?

RIGHT

Because excatly that happens in the replay and i was wondering that TripleA allows this!

Triple A allows MANY illegal moves, unfortunately.  All users of Triple A should familiarize themselves with this list I have compiled from my own personal experiences and also questions and problems reported from many other players, and describes all of the Triple A errors that I know of.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cS3hFwoBP0rWr3208jw1LAtCvHYa9Ji9uU8PwbCMIwM/edit

Some items are lined out because they have been corrected.  Several of the problems only come into play if you are playing with tech.  Let me know any time if you have any questions

[Krieghund]

@Centurio:

I understand you correctly, or please correct me again, Japan can load the transports in the Combat phase only if it then performs an amphibious attack with the infs and aris on them?

Correct.  Units may only be loaded onto transports during combat movement for the purpose of performing an amphibious assault in the same turn.  If the transport retreats from the sea battle while attempting to offload, the units must remain on board until a future turn.

[Centurio]

Thanks Gamerman to explain it in details that helps a lot! :-)

and Thank You Krieghund to draw attention to this point if the Transport retreats  :lol: