Transports and the turn Japan DOW

[Eetion]

So, the question is.

If UK/anzac place a sub while not in war with Japan in a sz where japan has transports.
Then the following turn for japan he declares war on western powers - Can japan load his transports ? because he is the one doing the DoW

/ty for answers
/Billen

[IKE]

First, the sub does not make the sea zone hostile so Japan could load in sz6 either way.

Second, even if there was a surface warship there, Japan can still load transports in the turn that it declares war.  (Unless UK moved a ship in that sea zone and then Anzac declared war on Japan, now Japan cannot load in that sea zone, but that is a different situation).  Specific to your question, yes if it is indeed Japan who declares war, they can load.  It is an exception to the rule.

What I’m now wondering is if this exception applies to the other powers as well?

[knp7765]

@IKE:

First, the sub does not make the sea zone hostile so Japan could load in sz6 either way.

Second, even if there was a surface warship there, Japan can still load transports in the turn that it declares war.  (Unless UK moved a ship in that sea zone and then Anzac declared war on Japan, now Japan cannot load in that sea zone, but that is a different situation).  Specific to your question, yes if it is indeed Japan who declares war, they can load.  It is an exception to the rule.

What I’m now wondering is if this exception applies to the other powers as well?

Yes it does. Any powers’ transports that are in a sea zone which was made hostile due to a declaration of war either upon them by another power or by them can load during the combat move and leave that sea zone on that turn only. Afterwards there is no loading in hostile sea zones.

[IKE]

@knp7765:

Any powers’ transports that are in a sea zone which was made hostile due to a declaration of war either upon them by another power

I’m not following what you mean in this part.  I get that the power making the war declaration can load, but if they were already at war before their turn started then they would not be able to load in a hostile sea zone.  (The UK/Anzac declaration of war example above)

[Zhukov44]

@Eetion:

So, the question is.

If UK/anzac place a sub while not in war with Japan in a sz where japan has transports.
Then the following turn for japan he declares war on western powers - Can japan load his transports ? because he is the one doing the DoW

/ty for answers
/Billen

Yes.  However, Japan loads transports in the sz with the sub and uses them to attack something else, then Japan can’t attack the sub itself.

Having a dd in the sz, on the other hand, would prevent Japan from loading.  Which is why many Japan players anticipate this and pre-load their transports before they declare war.

[madscientist]

What does DOW mean?

[barney]

@madscientist:

What does DOW mean?

declaration of war

[Krieghund]

@Zhukov44:

@Eetion:

So, the question is.

If UK/anzac place a sub while not in war with Japan in a sz where japan has transports.
Then the following turn for japan he declares war on western powers - Can japan load his transports ? because he is the one doing the DoW

/ty for answers
/Billen

Yes.  However, Japan loads transports in the sz with the sub and uses them to attack something else, then Japan can’t attack the sub itself.Â

There’s no reason why Japan can’t attack the sub.  Attacking it doesn’t change the fact that the sea zone isn’t hostile.

[aequitas-et-veritas]

@ShadowHAwk:

As i read the rules.

You cannot load a transport if there is a hostile warship there at the start of your turn ( excluding subs )
As you declare war after you buy stuff at the start of the combat phase the warship is still neutral at the start of your turn.

So there is no enemy ship in the SZ at the start of your turn so you can load.
That there is a enemy warship in the zone during the combat phase does not mather.

This works for everybody but it would only be usefull for the axis anyway.

@Zhukov44:

@Eetion:

So, the question is.

If UK/anzac place a sub while not in war with Japan in a sz where japan has transports.
Then the following turn for japan he declares war on western powers - Can japan load his transports ? because he is the one doing the DoW

/ty for answers
/Billen

Yes. � However, Japan loads transports in the sz with the sub and uses them to attack something else, then Japan can’t attack the sub itself. �

Having a dd in the sz, on the other hand, would prevent Japan from loading. � Which is why many Japan players anticipate this and pre-load their transports before they declare war.

What is the actual Status on this subject?
Wich one Counts?
Shadows or Zhukov’s answer?
Because the triplea game would let me load my TT’s and move out into a diffrent sz to amphib.

Here is the ruling text:

Transports
_If a transport encounters hostile surface warships (not enemy submarines and/or transports) AFTER it begins to move (not
counting the sea zone it started in), its movement for that turn ends, and it must stop there and conduct sea combat.
A transport can load units while in any friendly sea zone along its route, including the sea zone it started in.

If a Transport loads land units during the Combat Move phase, it must offload those units to attack a hostile territory as part of an
amphibious assault during the Conduct Combat phase, or it must retreat during the sea combat step of the amphibious assault
sequence while attempting to do so.

A transport that is part of an amphibious assault must end its movement in a friendly sea
zone (or one that could become friendly as result of sea combat) from which it can conduct the assault.
Any land units aboard a transport are considered cargo until they offload.
Cargo cannot take part in sea combat and is destroyed if the transport is destroyed._

To me this sentence means that I still can load and move into a diffrent seazone after JDoW on my Turn as Japan:

If a transport encounters hostile surface warships (not enemy submarines and/or transports) AFTER it begins to move (not
counting the sea zone it started in), its movement for that turn ends, and it must stop there and conduct sea combat.
A transport can load units while in any friendly sea zone along its route, including the sea zone it started in.

[aequitas-et-veritas]

J DoW3
CM:

Kwangsi is stacked wit Inf, art and Arm and ready to get onboard of the TT’s in sz36
The TT’s are acompanied with the most of Japans Warships (DD,CV,CR,BB etc.)

BUT: a UK DD moved one turn before the JDoW (UK T2) into the sz 36.

The Rulebook text says:

If a transport encounters hostile surface warships (not enemy submarines and/or transports) AFTER it begins to move (not
counting the sea zone it started in), its movement for that turn ends, and it must stop there and conduct sea combat.
A transport can load units while in any friendly sea zone along its route, including the sea zone it started in.

Am I still able to do my regular loads onto my TT’s as Japan, move out to Philli,Malaya etc to do my amphibs there? and leave whatever I desire to destroy the UK DD in sz36?

Or is it not possible because I simply cannot load and have to clear the sz 36 first?

[Panther]

@aequitas:

What is the actual status on this subject?

See the rulebook:

@rulebook:

Enemy submarines and/or transports do not block any
of your units’ movement, nor do they prevent loading
or offloading in that sea zone (with one exception; see
‘Special Combat Movement: Transports’, page 16).
…

This rule covers the fact that the Japanese transport may be loaded during Combat Move.
The seazone is not hostile, the sub may be ignored.

@rulebook:

Declaring War
…
War must be declared on your turn
at the beginning of the Combat Move phase, before
any combat movements are made, unless otherwise
specified in the political rules. An actual attack is
not required. Once a state of war is entered into, all
territories and sea zones controlled by or containing
units belonging to the power or powers on which you
declared war instantly become hostile to your units,
and the normal restrictions of moving into or through
hostile spaces apply, with one exception. During your
Combat Move phase in which you entered into a
state of war, your transports that are already in sea
zones that have just become hostile may be loaded in
those sea zones (but not in other hostile sea zones).
In effect, transports may be loaded in their initial sea
zones for amphibious assaults before war is declared,
while the sea zone is still friendly.
…

This rule covers the fact (as an exception in that special situation) that the Japanese transport may be loaded, even if there is an enemy destroyer present.

@ShadowHAwk:

There is an exception to the Sub rule afaik.
Normaly all ships can ignore transports but if there are only transports then they cannot ignore the sub.

There is no such rule, sorry.

@rulebook:

Doesn’t Block Enemy Movement: The ‘stealth’ ability
of submarines also allows enemy ships to ignore their
presence. Any sea zone that contains only enemy
submarines doesn’t stop the movement of a sea unit.
Sea units ending their combat movement in a sea zone
containing only enemy submarines may choose to attack
them or not. Sea units can also end their noncombat
movement in a sea zone containing only enemy
submarines.

The exception is that an unescorted transport may not offload from a seazone where an enemy submarine is present.

[Panther]

@aequitas:

J DoW3
CM:

Kwangsi is stacked wit Inf, art and Arm and ready to get onboard of the TT’s in sz36
The TT’s are acompanied with the most of Japans Warships (DD,CV,CR,BB etc.)

BUT: a UK DD moved one turn before the JDoW (UK T2) into the sz 36.

The Rulebook text says:

If a transport encounters hostile surface warships (not enemy submarines and/or transports) AFTER it begins to move (not
counting the sea zone it started in), its movement for that turn ends, and it must stop there and conduct sea combat.
A transport can load units while in any friendly sea zone along its route, including the sea zone it started in.

Am I still able to do my regular loads onto my TT’s as Japan, move out to Philli,Malaya etc to do my amphibs there? and leave whatever I desire to destroy the UK DD in sz36?

Or is it not possible because I simply cannot load and have to clear the sz 36 first?

In this case the “Sea Units starting in Hostile Sea Zones”-rules additionally apply for the Japanese fleet.
So in that special situation you can load your Transport and move out the entire fleet in CM.

[calvinhobbesliker]

In general, you can’t load transports in a hostile sea zone. However, there’s an exception that lets you load transports if a sea zone just became hostile as a result of you declaring war.

If the British want to stop the Japanese from loading, they would put the DD in the sea zone, and then have ANZAC declare war on Japan, which automatically puts the British as war with Japan as well. This means Japan can’t load its transports, since it won’t be the one declaring war. This is why many Japanese players leave troops in these transports instead of in Kwangsi.

[aequitas-et-veritas]

Thank you guys.
Thank you panther.

[Krieghund]

@P@nther:

The exception is that an unescorted transport may not offload from a seazone where an enemy submarine is present.

The exception is that an unescorted transport may not offload for an amphibious assault from a seazone where an enemy submarine is present.

Otherwise, great answer, P@nther!

[Panther]

Right, during Noncombat Move the unescorted transport may offload into a friendly territory - ignoring an enemy submarine.

Thank you :-)