Open letter to Larry Harris: Feedback on your excellent creation

[Telamon]

Please see below an open letter to Larry Harris.  If someone (Krieg?) could draw it to Mr Harris’ attention, I would be honored if he were to read it.

I’d welcome the A&A.org community’s views.

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Dear Mr Harris,

You have created a wonderful game in Axis and Allies Anniversary.  I’ve played it many times and gotten much joy out of.  In my view, it’s in good company with ultimate classics such as chess and bridge.  The game has come so far since its first release, yet has remained true to its original form.

In the context of my great affection for the game, and a considerable amount of time playing, analysing and reflecting on it, I offer some humble observations.  There is one small hole in the boat which I think is taking in water.  I hope to persuade you of its existence so that you can offer an official solution for the enjoyment of the large community playing your game.  It’s important to our community that everyone play the same official game – and that it’s yours.

The battle for Egypt decides all
The dice for Germany’s first round attack on Egypt has an enormous influence on the game.  In the order of 100 IPCs value rides on the outcome of this single battle.  Allow me to explain.

Assume Germany attacks Egypt with the maximum force possible: 2 infantry, artillery, bomber, 2 armor – with that order of loss.  If my opponent decides not to, well frankly I’m delighted - they don’t collect 100 IPCs of low hanging fruit.  About 25% of times, Germany will fail to capture Egypt.  Britain will then control most of Africa for at least the first 4 turns, until the Japanese juggernaut arrives.  In 60% of games, Germany will capture Egypt with 2 armor, or better.  The tanks will have captured the majority of Africa by turn 2, and nearly all of it by turn 3, with proper play.

The difference between these two scenarios is simply staggering.  Below is the relative value for the Axis in the second scenario compared to the first:

• Germany killed a british fighter (and you might count the armor), which otherwise survive (10-15 IPC).

• Germany also didn’t lose 2 tanks (and maybe count the bomber), which are casualties in the other scenario (10 or 22 IPC).

• Germany captured Egypt (2 IPC income)

• Britain will not recapture Egypt on their turn - happy to demonstrate why this would be silly and unlikely (2 IPC denied plus 5 IPC for their National Objective which otherwise would be collected).

• Italy is therefore highly likely to collect its National Objective in turn 1, by taking Trans-jordan (5 IPC)

So that’s about 35-50 so far, just for one battle.  But the consequences over turns 1-4 make it even more stark:

• Germany will still have Egypt on turn 2 as a result (2 IPC gained, 2 more denied to Britain)

• Germany will have at least 3 other African territories on turn 2 after the victorious tanks roll on.  Maybe four territories if the artillery survived in the attack and the transport can take it to Madagascar (3-4 IPC gained in turn 2, with those 3-4 also being denied to Britain).

• Germany will take more of Africa on turn 3.  This compounding effect applies every turn for turns 1-4 until reinforcements can reach Africa.  Germany is gaining about 10 income a turn which is simultaneously denied to Britain.  They do not achieve this if the Egypt battle fails in turn 1.

It’s like stacks of poker chips.  Assume the axis armies and allied armies are both worth 600 IPC (that’s pretty close to true at the start).  By the end of turn two, and all else being equal, one team will be worth 575 and the other worth 625 (a fifty point margin).  By the end of turn 3 its more like 565/635 (70 point margin) and will look worse on turn 4 (~90).  This is a huge game-deciding advantage that is being determined by a single battle.  Experience suggests that Axis nearly always win when they take Egypt with 2 tanks or better.  They tend to have a slight edge when they take it with 1 tank (the other 15% of games).  When they fail to capture Egypt, a game between two good players is very close – perhaps with an allied advantage.  It is a shame for a game as rich and complex as Axis and Allies to have a button on the board that, when pressed, determines the winner.

Solution?
I wish only to draw the issue to your attention and leave to you the job of finding an elegant solution for us.  I recognise the difficulty of changing one thing without affecting others.  However it’s clear that the largest component of the problem is the income from African territories.  After 4 turns, there is something like 90 IPCs difference.  About 20-35 of that was due to unit loss/retention from the battle, 10 from National Objectives in turn 1, and the rest from African income.

The things we love
There’s so much to love about Axis and Allies Anniversary.  Italy is a fascinating and welcome addition.  National Objectives add income to the game, giving powers like Russia the flexibility to do things other than just “buy 8 infantry”, the new face of naval combat is groundbreaking, and the board design is layered with strategic depth.  Russia having 3 factories is genius - potential strength and vulnerability at once.  The new sub rules are utterly engaging, and the naval cost structure is close to perfect.  The new cost of planes is spot on.

While, the Egypt problem above is the only real worry that affects playability, there are a few small matters which have been observed in this community.  Tweaking these would help this game stand the test of time:

• We were all very excited to see the new role of China.  However, it seems that Japan stomps on the Flying Tigers every game before it gets a chance to move. Perhaps if it started in another location, or China went before Germany allowing it to escape.

• It’s also not clear why the regular powers collect their income at the end of their turn, but China collects its infantry at the start of its turn (to its disadvantage).  It’s already very marginalised once Japan moves

• Good players rarely buy cruisers.  At 12 IPC they are too weak for the cost.  At 11 they would still be the weakest ship in value terms, but I think they would then enter the repertoire for their bombard ability. With cruisers at 11 IPC, no ship is obsolete and all have their role.

• East Indies is an unsually powerful spot for a Japanese factory, with most players heading straight for Russia’s jugular via Persia > Caucasus.  Perhaps if it was worth 2 (constraining production), Borneo was worth 1, and Japan had a National Objective of 5 IPC for holding both (to compensate for the income).

• No one is quite sure why the British have capturing a Japanese island as an objective.

Mr Harris, in Axis and Allies Anniversary you have created an innovative game with simple and intuitive rules, that leads to enormous strategic depth. Like all classic games.  I offer this feedback as an admirer of your work, and after a considerable amount of playing and reflecting on your creation.  We all know it’s impossible to make a game perfect on its release, and the real playtesting comes after that.  We understand the constraints and challenges caused by the production/release process.  Now that it has seen the light of day, we would all celebrate some minor amendments to ensure this game is the closest to hand in the games cupboard.  We’d love to see the icing put on the cake, and we all want to eat the same cake together.

Thank you for your consideration.  Sincerest regards, and may we all have the opportunity to play your games for many years to come.

Letter submitted to HGD in ‘Talk to Larry’ thread.

[Krieghund]

This is interesting stuff, Telamon.  I have forwarded it to Larry.

@Telamon:

It’s also not clear why the regular powers collect their income at the end of their turn, but China collects its infantry at the start of its turn (to its disadvantage).  It’s already very marginalised once Japan moves

This was done for reasons of rules consistency.  China receives new units at the same time as the US, during the Purchase Units phase.

I’ll give Larry a chance to respond personally before addressing any of the other issues.

[Jennifer]

BTW, I buy cruisers as light Battleships.

But I agree, they should be 10 IPC.

I also think Bombers should be 20 IPC with the requirement of 2 AA hits to shoot down. (First one just forces the bomber to retreat before dropping bombs.)

[Pin]

Egypt is indeed very decisive if you choose to take the shot, myself i have stopped adding it in my G1 moves, and it seems im doing a lot more consistent good after that adjustment. Simply trying to minimize the risk the dices put upon my overall strategy. You can make sure you will take it turn 2 and by that way keep a lot more units in Africa, and make it harder from the allies to remove the axis dominance over africa so early.

[Krieghund]

Larry’s response (posted on his site):

Hello Telamon. Thanks for your most kind posting. “Remained true to the original”… Thanks for noticing. That’s an interesting observation. To be compared to Chess and bridge is a bit of a stretch but I’ll take it and you’re right. the value of any given game depends on the individuals prospective.

Hole in the boat !? Egypt! Oh oh… A button on the board that decides a winner… In spite of that some people still think the game is too long? I mean just push the button and go to bed. Just trying to be a bit funny – excuse me. I get your point. I’m not sure I agree with your premise but even if I did, there’s not much I can really do about it at this point (not the answer you wanted – right?) As for an elegant solution or remedy… Other than adding an addition UK unit (infantry I guess) I don’t know what to tell you. I will say, however, that being aware of this problem already is some what of a remedy in and of itself. Let’s face it, Egypt was, and in this game, still is important to both sides. How bad do you want it? During WWII this area was no less important than Stalingrad or the war in the Atlantic. The allies (mostly thanks to the fact that they were reading all of the Italian and German communications, and of course some damned good men) won this critical battle. If they had not… Well we might now all be speaking German (Ich liebe dich) or Italian (Ti amo). My question is… how do I reflect this intelligents factor into the game when considering the military balance there? This is kind of why I don’t want to design a Midway game. Where would you find somebody willing to play the US?

“The small matters” (not really all that small actually):
Flying Tigers… If the Japanese want it bad enough they are going to get it. Look on the bright side – if the Japanese attack this fighter there’s some other place they did not attack and if they attack this fighter they are attacking it at its best possible combat defense number (4). On the other hand, let’s consider allowing them to move it out of China, in order to reduce its exposure. They could always start of in India I guess. I don’t really know how you could still call them the Flying Tigers however. You might end up calling them the Punjabi air force (some how that just doesn’t have the same impact does it…) My intent in restricting Chinese units to just China was to reflect the lack of Chinese impact on the outside world. It was, after all, very much looking “with in” and never would be trying to influence anything outside China. The last thing I wanted to see in the game was Chinese units fighting Japanese units in Moscow, or talking that over stuff Chinese war lords into such an adventure. It’s guys like and your group who eventually prove me wrong or right. I’m beginning think that you are right. Solution… Place 2 more Chinese (in either scenarios) infantry on Yunnan. Make em really pay!

China Collects income at start of its turn:
I kind of like the idea of letting the Chinese react to those last Japanese moves. You seem to say… in fact you do say that this is disadvantages to the Chinese. I guess it depends on how you look at it. I do think I see a misunderstanding here, however… There’s a sentence in the second paragraph of the China Rules that reads:
The U.S. player must complete the Combat Move and Conduct Combat phases for Chinese forces before beginning the Combat Move phase for U.S., or vice versa. It’s the “vice versa” that may not be clear. Vice versa in this case means that its either the Chinese or the Americans that are moved and conduct combat – not both at the same time. No where does it say which power goes first. It does say vice versa, however. This permits the player to move his Chinese or Americans first (or vice versa). If he (the US player) elects to move his American units first, he’d end up paying the Chinese before China has its turn. If he elects to move the Chinese first, he’d pay the Chinese at the end of the Chinese turn. Both armies are reinforced at the same time – and that time is when the US places his units.

Cruiser. Hey I’m not a great player but not all that bad either. In fact there were times when I was the best player in the world for each of my games. It’s when that world population exceeded 3 people that I noticed a decline in my standings. Cruiser… They have their purpose… heck at 12 IPCs they can come in handy in mid game when I’m usually fighting for my life. And with battleships costing 20 I usually can’t afford that kind of money.
Buying a cruiser at 12 gives me 8 more IPCs to play with when compared to a BB purchase … For 19 IPCs I can buy something that the navy is really all about… a transport. I can’t really argue with a bunch of “good player” however. If they say cruisers are a good purchase at 11 and I say they are “an ok purchase” at 12… ok I hear ya. I don’t always agree with this assumption, however. I’d like to give you some insights on how I see it. I look at the over all cost in IPCs for each unit’s ability to score a hit on the enemy. A sub costing 6 and having a combined attack and defense total of 3 (2 on attack plus 1 on defense) cost me 2 IPCs for each opportunity to hit my opponent. That’s funny, that’s the same price-per-opportunity to kill something as a destroyer has… They cost 8 and have a combat value of 4. (8/by4=2). Cruisers at 12 and divided by 6 (3/3) is also 2. A battleships with its price tag of 20 has a cost per potential hit at 2.5. Of course a battleship has two lives so its cost really is 1.25 IPCs per hit opportunity. Good deal! But it cost so damned many IPCs. In defense of the lover priced cruiser, I’d like to point out that it has the same cost/kill ability as a destroyer or a sub. So why pick on the cruiser. Yeah, I know DDs have a that special anti-sub thing and subs have their own special points of (I want to say: confusion) value. But a cruiser has a 50% chance of scoring a hit during a bombardment (its special ability). In any case, I assigned a value of 12 to the cruiser perhaps it should have been an 11. I could not always use this simple formula when assigning values to these various units. I also had to take into consideration my perception of what was fun but yet made the most sense. Kind of subjective don’t you think. Look at the bomber or the carrier for example. They have a cost of 2.4 and 2.33 per kill ability. Is that long range of a bomber worth that extra .4 and is the carrier worth that extra .33 because it can carry aircraft. I guess so, I mean I think so. Who knows for sure? You got to admit, however, that all the units are certainly in the ball park when it comes to cost.

The East Indies was kind of why the Japanese went to war. It certainly should be worth something rather special. Your proposal is of course interesting and in hind sight I sometimes wish I had seen it that way (sometimes). Even in hind-sight I don’t think I would change a thing, however. But that’s just me. This kind of begs for me to comment on that fine line I have to walk. That line extends between game play and history. I tend to error on the side of history, or a least I want to. Giving a national bonus for something that should have been there in the first place makes me break into a cold sweat. " Hey Larry… don’t you realize that the East Indies were rich in precious oil and other war material? How could you make it worth less than it should be?"

As for building those factories and going after Russia’s jugular via Persia… wow, that’s nasty. Where is the US while this going on? In any case, the idea of building a factory on some backwards island has always bothered me. In AAP40 and AAE40 you can’t build on an island. Exceptions being Australia, England and of course Japan. This Japan attacks Russia business has always be a source of great torment to me…I wish you guys would just play the game the way I wanted you to. Hahahha. In the defense of my design let me simply say that, “The way I see it, all the powers have their antagonist and if these antagonist aren’t doing their job right there’s always going to be somebody ganging up on mother Russia or brother Germany.”

National objective question – Why do the Brits get a bonus for capturing a Japanese controlled territory (not island as you put it), but it could be an island. Hey, I think it’s a big deal if those under manned and under paid Brits managed to take a Japanese possession or two, and get a bonus for doing it. Makes em strive in the right direction, that’s for sure. Hummm if I could just capture something Japanese… I think my national moral would go through the roof. Let’s march into that Sushi bar and take it over!

If any or all of this response sounds defensive, it’s because they are…but I certainly enjoy your demonstrated interest in the game and always enjoy the opportunity to express how and why I see the world in certain ways. Man I could go on for hours… I’ve got a bit of Joe Biden in me I guess. And speaking about the Vice President… How about Obama? I love this guy. Best thing to happen to this country since VJ day. (I know this is going to absolutely dampen some game sales).

AAE40 and AAP40 include some changes in the very areas you are talking about. Case in point, you can’t build a factory on an island. I don’t care how many IPCs it generates. China – you can move into Hong Kong and Burma. This does not include the Flying Tigers however, they’ve got to stay within China. If the Burma Road ( oh yeah now there’s a Burma Road) is open the Chinese can purchase artillery. In AAP40 China has its own economy, makes it own purchases, moves it own units. Being exactly like the other powers, in turn sequence, it will place its new units, purchased with IPCs generated by Chinese territories it controls . There are now 12 territories that China starts with and potentially there are 18 territories that China can control. Each generating 2 IPCs (exception (there always is one)) Manchuria is worth 3 IPCs. Oh and one more thing… China collects a bonus of 6 IPCs each turn the Burma Road is open. Chinese units are placed, during China’s Mobilize New Units phase 5 and collects income during phase 6. Those Flying Tigers…(?), they’re nicely nestled in between 4 Chinese Infantry units.
As for Egypt… guess what. There are NO Germans (at all) in North Africa at the beginning of the game. They don’t even have a ship in the Mediterranean. The Italians well be well represented however. If you’re playing the Axis you better hope they do better than they did historically. One more bit of information. between Libya and Egypt lare two new territories… Tobruk and Alexandria. There should be some additional back and forths going on down there. The cruisers… they’re still 12 and will have to remain so. On the other hand damaged capital ships, and there are now two such things - battleships and carriers, must return to a friendly naval base when damaged, if they want to be repaired. Damaged carrier’s can’t land or launch aircraft when in a damaged state… you know they’ll be making a bee line to a friendly naval base. Did I mention that ships leaving a naval base can move 3 sea zones? Did I tell you about airbases and two different sized factories… if not I’ll tell you about them some other time. Did I tell you that Russia now has new Battle ship sculpt… No? Good.

[Bardoly]

@Krieghund:

Larry’s response (posted on his site):

National objective question – Why do the Brits get a bonus for capturing a Japanese controlled territory (not island as you put it), but it could be an island. Hey, I think it’s a big deal if those under manned and under paid Brits managed to take a Japanese possession or two, and get a bonus for doing it. Makes em strive in the right direction, that’s for sure. Hummm if I could just capture something Japanese… I think my national moral would go through the roof. Let’s march into that Sushi bar and take it over!

Does this mean that UK is only supposed to get this NO if the UK controls a Japanese starting territory, not if any Ally (America) captures one?

[Telamon]

No, Britain gets it if any ally occupies a japanese territory.  That’s the main reason why it’s a little odd: generally the US is the only power in a position to accomplish this on the brits behalf.

[Panther]

@Krieghund:

Larry’s response (posted on his site):

Flying Tigers… Solution… Place 2 more Chinese (in either scenarios) infantry on Yunnan. Make em really pay!

Hm… how do we have to understand this?

1. an “official” rule change or
2. an “official” optional rule or
3. just an idea for a house rule

?

[HolKann]

[about Egypt:] Other than adding an addition UK unit (infantry I guess) I don’t know what to tell you.

Ooo, there is a solution :D

Solution… Place 2 more Chinese (in either scenarios) infantry on Yunnan. Make em really pay!

…writing this down…

I can’t really argue with a bunch of good players, however. If they say cruisers are a good purchase at 11 and I say they are “an ok purchase” at 12… ok I hear ya.

Hmm, are you saying cruisers are a good purchase at 11?

I don’t always agree with this assumption, however.

Damn, you aren’t :( Let’s see why…

I’d like to give you some insights on how I see it. I look at the over all cost in IPCs for each unit’s ability to score a hit on the enemy. A sub costing 6 and having a combined attack and defense total of 3 (2 on attack plus 1 on defense) cost me 2 IPCs for each opportunity to hit my opponent. That’s funny, that’s the same price-per-opportunity to kill something as a destroyer has… They cost 8 and have a combat value of 4. (8/by4=2). Cruisers at 12 and divided by 6 (3/3) is also 2. A battleships with its price tag of 20 has a cost per potential hit at 2.5. Of course a battleship has two lives so its cost really is 1.25 IPCs per hit opportunity. Good deal! But it cost so damned many IPCs. In defense of the lover priced cruiser, I’d like to point out that it has the same cost/kill ability as a destroyer or a sub. So why pick on the cruiser. Yeah, I know DDs have a that special anti-sub thing and subs have their own special points of (I want to say: confusion) value. But a cruiser has a 50% chance of scoring a hit during a bombardment (its special ability). In any case, I assigned a value of 12 to the cruiser perhaps it should have been an 11. I could not always use this simple formula when assigning values to these various units. I also had to take into consideration my perception of what was fun but yet made the most sense. Kind of subjective don’t you think. Look at the bomber or the carrier for example. They have a cost of 2.4 and 2.33 per kill ability.

Hmm, nice reasoning. BUT dear Larry Harris, you’re forgetting the most important value of a unit! In your view, a unit’s price is determined by “kill ability” and “special ability”. These are indeed 2 major factors, but you’re forgetting the most important one: “hit taking ability”. Let’s calculate that for each naval unit shall we? sub: 1 hit for 6 IPC’s = ~0.15 DD’s: 1/8= ~0.13 Cru: 1/12= ~0.8 BB: 2/20= ~0.1 (excluding the autorepair after each battle) Loaded carrier: 3/34= ~0.9. Well now, guess who’s coming out at the bottom, also having (imho) the worst “special ability” of all. It’s big plus should be the “kill ability”, so 11 for a Cru would still make it not so good a deal. Imho, 10 would be very defendable, subs would still be bought, DD’s would still be bought to counter subs and for cheap hits, and the cru would simply be good value for the money; yer basic sea unit taking over the role of core fleet unit, from the DD who isn’t made for this role in the first place! Sorry mr. Harris, but the logic you’re using to refute cheaper cruisers is wrong/incomplete, please consider to rethink this…

So summarized: 1 inf extra in Egy, 2 in Yun, and a Cru of 11 (or 10?!). Please mr. Harris, make this the official LHTR for AA50, so I can convince my friends to play with these more balanced rules. Otherwise those shiny new Cruisers in AA 1942 will stay in the box too much  :|

[Krieghund]

@P@nther:

@Krieghund:

Larry’s response (posted on his site):

Flying Tigers… Solution… Place 2 more Chinese (in either scenarios) infantry on Yunnan. Make em really pay!

Hm… how do we have to understand this?

1. an “official” rule change or
2. an “official” optional rule or
3. just an idea for a house rule

?

House rule.  If it ain’t in the rules or FAQ, it ain’t official.

By the way, guys, if really want Larry to see any of your feedback, you should post it as his site.

[Telamon]

You’re spot on Holkann - hit taking ability is as important as hit giving ability.  That’s why 5 cruisers (attack points 15, cost 60) will consistently lose to 3 battleships (attack points 12, cost 60).  Extra hits.  It’s what makes destroyers the best value for buffing a fleet.  I agree that 10 is a realistic option for cruisers - it would make them a fraction weaker than destroyers, but a definite step ahead of battleships.  At 11, they are a fraction weaker than battleships.  I don’t mind where they are placed 10-11, but at 12 IPC they are pricing themselves out of the market.  Bombarding doesn’t make up for a weak, expensive unit.

[Funcioneta]

@Krieghund:

@Telamon:

It’s also not clear why the regular powers collect their income at the end of their turn, but China collects its infantry at the start of its turn (to its disadvantage).  It’s already very marginalised once Japan moves

This was done for reasons of rules consistency.  China receives new units at the same time as the US, during the Purchase Units phase.

A poor reply: for rules consistency, China should be able of getting IPCs, purchasing all type of units, attacking out of China and surviving until her very first turn as any country. Or there were any chances of jap tanks blitzing chinese non-industrial and mountain areas?

China is the flaw in this game. Fix that as soon as possible and stop messing with techs that worked

[Funcioneta]

@Krieghund:

Larry’s response (posted on his site):

China Collects income at start of its turn:
I kind of like the idea of letting the Chinese react to those last Japanese moves. You seem to say… in fact you do say that this is disadvantages to the Chinese. I guess it depends on how you look at it. I do think I see a misunderstanding here, however… There’s a sentence in the second paragraph of the China Rules that reads:
The U.S. player must complete the Combat Move and Conduct Combat phases for Chinese forces before beginning the Combat Move phase for U.S., or vice versa. It’s the “vice versa” that may not be clear. Vice versa in this case means that its either the Chinese or the Americans that are moved and conduct combat – not both at the same time. No where does it say which power goes first. It does say vice versa, however. This permits the player to move his Chinese or Americans first (or vice versa). If he (the US player) elects to move his American units first, he’d end up paying the Chinese before China has its turn. If he elects to move the Chinese first, he’d pay the Chinese at the end of the Chinese turn. Both armies are reinforced at the same time – and that time is when the US places his units.

OK, this was a really confusing sentence  :? I finally think what Larry is trying say, but still I’m confused. It’s supposed that you buy units before combat moves and deploy them after NC moves. Then, order of China and USA attacks is irrelevant so why mess with chinese purchases? Why not give them just sane plain old IPCs or at least some sort of infantery counters?

It was so really difficult make China a independet full power? That gives more consistency to rules  :| As now, rules give Japan all the power without any disadvantage. Make the non-agression pact rule or at least make China non-blitzable by tanks

[Imperious Leader]

That’s why 5 cruisers (attack points 15, cost 60) will consistently lose to 3 battleships (attack points 12, cost 60).  Extra hits.  It’s what makes destroyers the best value for buffing a fleet.  I agree that 10 is a realistic option for cruisers -

Cruisers at 10
Destroyers at 8
both with 2 battleships:

42.6%
52.1%

accounting for the SD of 3, could makeup the difference.

the same with no battleships mixed in:

45.6%
52.4%

solution: keep them @ 10, give them free AA @1 ( first round only) vs. air and give them ASW ( like the DD)

[Jennifer]

There are some very simple fixes:

1. Make England go first. (Then Germany, etc.)

2. Move the Chinese fighter to Sikang.  As it stands now, and feel free to pass this on to Larry, I kill every last Chinese unit in Japan 1.  From there, it’s pretty easy walking to Moscow.  I know he doesn’t like that, so see 3)

3. Russo-Japanese pact.  Japan cannot attack Russia unless:  Germany/Italy is in allied hands (either or); Moscow, Washington DC and/or London have been captured by the axis.  Any of those happen, Japan can attack Russian territories. (Russian forces are either forbidden to be in allied lands or they are treated as allied units and not Russian in regards to this treaty.)

4. Drop cruisers to 10 IPC in cost.  Up bombers to 20 IPC in cost, but give them AA Gun protection.  Validate the 20 IPC cost on Battleships, give them an AA Gun ability (same rules for multiple AA guns if there are multiple Battleships in a zone.)

[gamerman01]

@Telamon:

You’re spot on Holkann - hit taking ability is as important as hit giving ability.  That’s why 5 cruisers (attack points 15, cost 60) will consistently lose to 3 battleships (attack points 12, cost 60).  Extra hits.  It’s what makes destroyers the best value for buffing a fleet.  I agree that 10 is a realistic option for cruisers - it would make them a fraction weaker than destroyers, but a definite step ahead of battleships.  At 11, they are a fraction weaker than battleships.  I don’t mind where they are placed 10-11, but at 12 IPC they are pricing themselves out of the market.  Bombarding doesn’t make up for a weak, expensive unit.

I also agree Holkann had a great point - pretty much the same thing I was thinking when I read Larry’s reply.  Hit taking ability is a major factor.
It is difficult to really compare the ships because every one has different abilities.  You compare 5 cruisers to 3 battleships because they have the same cost, but it’s hard to compare because of the auto-repair ability.  Put it this way, if I had 5 cruisers I wouldn’t want to attack 3 battleships with them, and if I had 3 battleships I would want to attack 5 cruisers because I have the option to retreat after taking 3 free hits.

Also, if you “buff your fleet” with a bunch of destroyers, you’re right that they’re more efficient than cruisers - against other fleets only.  But my land and air units on land are not afraid of your destroyers coming closer, but your cruisers are menacing.  Also, Larry had a great point about the cost.  Battleships “only” cost 1.67 times more than a cruiser, but many times I do not want to commit 20 IPC’s to one unit.  Or what if I have 12 IPC’s I want to spend on my fleet?  Which is better, a destroyer or a cruiser?  I can’t buy 2 destroyers with 12 IPC’s.
I don’t think 12 IPC cruisers should be in the top 20 of our suggestions for improvements to AA50.  We’ve come a long way from 24 IPC one-hit battleships and 18 IPC carriers, though, haven’t we?
I’m “writing this one down” - no new complexes on islands - brilliant.

[Lynxes]

This thing with unit additions is of course what is the simplest balance change and I find it interesting that Larry does acknowledge this need when presented with playing results considering he earlier on stated that cash-only bids are to be preferred. Should this be the competitive format of the game?

1) Optional rules (int’ceptors+Dardanelles closed)
2) 1 UK inf in Egypt added  (effect: chance of surviving with 1 armor+1 bomber or better with a max attack down from 60 to 36%)
3) 2 Chinese inf in Yunnan added (effect: chance of clearing area with no fighter losses with a 3 inf, 2 fig attack down from 84 to 24%)

As for cruisers and east indies, these are more complex changes and harder to get a consensus on. If we play with a balance-adjusted format we probably won’t be so absorbed with these other issues. UK buys cruisers mostly, which mirrors reality if we look at war production. Carriers protected by destroyers were the main battle instrument for Japs and Yanks, no harm in that being the case in the game. I wouldn’t mind cruisers at 11 IPCs and a no ICs on islands restriction, but can imagine consensus on these changes being more difficult to get.

[oztea]

Hold on a second….why are ships always getting AA guns?
The vulnerability of the big ships was one of the top 5 lessons of WWII!
Battle of Taranto, Pearl Harbor, Guadalcanal, Midway, etc.

No AA guns on boats, it doesnt solve anything. It just makes the UK fleet stronger if germany can only attack it by air late game.

Now on this note, AA guns. There should be more of them…Gibraltar, Hawaii, and China should start with one…this adresses the issue of japan spaming aircraft at China, with an AA gun the chinese have a Headquarters, so to speak, representing enough firepower to fend off a major air attack.

As for Egypt, thats how the cookie crumbles. It was a tough battle, it could have gone either way, what needs to be represented better is the surrounding territories. More goofballs running around africa, another south african, always a guy in perisa, another in transjordan, it wasnt all or nothing cram everyone in egypt, the UK had there what it could fit there logisticly, and it had reserves.

Island Factories…I despise them, 100% Ahistorical. …but im a fan of victory cities priducing 1 infantry a turn if you pay.

Cruisers are fine, a 3/3 for 10 is a fighter. A 3/3 for 5 Is a tank A 3/3 for 12 is a Cruiser.
Small discrepency, but its all realitive. In the water a 3/3 for 12 is fine, considering the 2/2 is 8 (66% of cost) and the 2/2 on land is 80% of the cost of its 3/3 counterpart. Boats cost alot of money folks, remember if you drop it low enough Russia might buy one and thats pretty ahistorical. 12 makes it an investment, not a bargan.

And most importantly what is this I hear about AAE40 and AAP40 that Larry is talking about? Re-releases, with fixes? Is there any more info?

[Imperious Leader]

Look at AA42. I have been posting on this without respite for the last week.

AAE40 and AAP40 fact Sheet>

Also. Cruisers were AA gun platforms. They protected and escorted larger ships. The game has no accounting for how planes and ships interact except to just jumble the attack and defense factors w/o any reasoning to account for ‘targeting specifically planes attacking ships’

The disparaging combat results of the Cruiser at 12 compared to a destroyer make or rather force you to lower the cost to 10 just to get the combat results close to equal. So to add this little bit about giving them a AA roll (just for the first round) seems justified.

[oztea]

Planes and ships dont interact
Air Squadrons and Fleets interact
Why should a fleet of epic proportions be able to throw up an AA net that knocks down whole Air squadrons before they even get a chance to attack.

Combat is a seemless and brutal affair in axis and allies, the opposing forces meet on the field of battle and roll at the same time. And let the gods sort out where the bullets land.
Destroyers dying first is destroyers sacrificing themselfes in the outer cordon.