The German battleship

[oysteilo]

How valuable is it? Is it worthwhile to sacrifice G1 in 110 (especially if you buy land units for germany)? Or is the hit and run trick to 111 better with tha aim to merge with a newly bought carrier?

Personally I think it is not a big deal to loose it G1 although I usually do the 111 trick

What do people think?

[Witt]

I always lose it. Never hit and run.

[weddingsinger]

Its value is tied to whether or not Sea Lion is your goal, an option, or not gonna happen.

If you want to push the UK out of the Atlantic, its very valuable.  Not necessary for Sea Lion, but useful.  If you’re committed to Barbarossa, its just nice to have.

[Caesar-Seriona]

The Bismarck is very valuable and it is the flagship of the Kreigsmarine. You should keep her alive and use her well, even if you’re not going to land on UK, sinking home fleet is key.

[KGrimB]

I think the 2 health points of the Bismarck is the main value. It can lessen the damage of bad rolls by shielding your air force from hits. I almost always send it to 110 or 111 fully expecting it to be sunk by G2. If it survives I normally use it to shield the starting transport or take it on a desperate mission into the Mediterranean. That was an extremely rare occurrence and thinking back to it I should have gone for Sea Lion that game instead of sending it South.

[simon33]

It’s also quite valuable for defending SZ112/113 from 1-2 punch assaults on Berlin. Saves you from putting a bunch of inf in Berlin which is not a good use of IPCs.

[Gargantua]

This is one of those few Axis pieces that is of higher value to the Allies than it is to the Axis.

I recommend the hit and run if you can do it.

It’s a real nuisance piece if you can keep it alive.  It gives a lot of strength to the baltic fleet; and it will continue to be an allied target for a long time;  it also supports a lot of options for Germany which will frustrate the allies whatever they decide to do.

[Littorio]

I have yet to manage to keep it alive. It really only seems to me that it is an option if the UK scrambles their fighters as you would otherwise be leaving a UK battleship damaged, which in my opinion doesn’t seem like a good trade-off. Am I overlooking something?

[weddingsinger]

@Littorio:

I have yet to manage to keep it alive. It really only seems to me that it is an option if the UK scrambles their fighters as you would otherwise be leaving a UK battleship damaged, which in my opinion doesn�t seem like a good trade-off. Am I overlooking something?

IF your UK opponent does Taranto raid, there should be few fighters left on London to scramble, which means you can either sink it in sz109 or it has to limp back to Canada to be repaired and come back no sooner than UK5 to SZ109 or sz91 (Gibraltor)

[nhgrif]

@Gargantua:

This is one of those few Axis pieces that is of higher value to the Allies than it is to the Axis.

I don’t understand this comment.

[nhgrif]

@Littorio:

I have yet to manage to keep it alive. It really only seems to me that it is an option if the UK scrambles their fighters as you would otherwise be leaving a UK battleship damaged, which in my opinion doesn�t seem like a good trade-off. Am I overlooking something?

Are we talking about turn 1?  Can you explain more fully what is happening on your turn 1?

I move the German battleship, as well as one of the Atlantic subs into 110, and supplement that with 3 fighters and 3 tactical bombers.  I always manage to sink the English ships.  It’s down to luck whether or not I have any surviving German ships, but I’ve always sunk the British fleet.

And by sinking the Royal Navy in sea zones 109, 110, and 111 using your five submarines, battleship, and air force, you’ve forced England into some hard decisions.  The destroyer/transport in Canada might be trying to take out two German submarines.  The Cruiser at Gibraltar has to decide between helping in the Mediterranean, or coming back home to attempt blocking some of Germany’s options with the cruiser & transport from the Baltic (and whatever Germany may have built on turn 1).  German boats sitting in SZ110 (the cruiser, transport from the Baltic and any new boats built) can reach London for a Sealion, Gibraltar/Morocco to really activate Italy, or Novgorod from either SZ115 or 127.  That could be a cruiser, fully loaded carrier, and 3 fully loaded transports showing up in either of those 3 theaters on Germany’s second turn.

[nhgrif]

@weddingsinger:

IF your UK opponent does Taranto raid, there should be few fighters left on London to scramble, which means you can either sink it in sz109 or it has to limp back to Canada to be repaired and come back no sooner than UK5 to SZ109 or sz91 (Gibraltor)

Short of Germany capturing London on turn 1, why isn’t the British battleship healed from the naval base in London?  Or are we talking about the battleship in 111?

[weddingsinger]

@nhgrif:

And by sinking the Royal Navy in sea zones 109, 110, and 111 using your five submarines, battleship, and air force, you’ve forced England into some hard decisions.  The destroyer/transport in Canada might be trying to take out two German submarines.

Wait, sz 109?  The one next to England?  Why wouldn’t the UK scramble its 3 or 4 fighters into the sea zone and wipe out your subs at zero risk to their fighters?

[SEP]

I normally do not send the battleship out to hit the British home fleet on G1.  I’ll keep it where it’s at because I normally build an air craft carrier on G1.  The Battleship along with the cruiser and air craft carrier is normally all I’ll need to utilize Sea Lion.

I’ll go after the fleet off of Scotland on G1 with two subs and whatever aircraft will reach, minus the strategic bombers which bomb London.  I’ll go after the lone British cruiser with a couple of subs and use the fifth sub to go after the destroyer/transport off Canada.  Yes, this leaves the fleet intact off London but it’s usually moved away on GB1.  If not I can always go after it on G2 if I think it’s necessary.

My goal is Sea Lion by G4 most of the time.

[weddingsinger]

@nhgrif:

@weddingsinger:

IF your UK opponent does Taranto raid, there should be few fighters left on London to scramble, which means you can either sink it in sz109 or it has to limp back to Canada to be repaired and come back no sooner than UK5 to SZ109 or sz91 (Gibraltor)

Short of Germany capturing London on turn 1, why isn’t the British battleship healed from the naval base in London?  Or are we talking about the battleship in 111?

Yep, talking sz 111.

@SEP:

I normally do not send the battleship out to hit the British home fleet on G1.  I’ll keep it where it’s at because I normally build an air craft carrier on G1.  The Battleship along with the cruiser and air craft carrier is normally all I’ll need to utilize Sea Lion.

You don’t really need the carrier for Sea Lion.  Or the battleship.  IF you’re worried about your transports being sunk, take Normandy G2 and then G3 (when you invade) you can build 3 ships in the same sz110 with your transports and cruiser.  This lets you build something more useful for the attack on G1 that can still be used if Sea Lion ends up being a bad idea, like bombers.

[koala]

@weddingsinger:

You don’t really need the carrier for Sea Lion.  Or the battleship.  IF you’re worried about your transports being sunk, take Normandy G2 and then G3 (when you invade) you can build 3 ships in the same sz110 with your transports and cruiser.

Problem for me is mostly the thread of scrambling during the actual attack which destracts to much air from hitting london.

[weddingsinger]

@Koala:

@weddingsinger:

You don’t really need the carrier for Sea Lion.  Or the battleship.  IF you’re worried about your transports being sunk, take Normandy G2 and then G3 (when you invade) you can build 3 ships in the same sz110 with your transports and cruiser.

Problem for me is mostly the thread of scrambling during the actual attack which destracts to much air from hitting london.

Fair point.  I wasn’t considering how many, if any, fighters the UK might have there.  Whether you need the carrier or not changes very quickly between whether your battleship survived or if the UK has 2 or 3 fighters.

[aequitas-et-veritas]

In case you do a SL:

With a BB alive paired with your CR you will need two additional Ftr’s and have a 90% chance to win and deflect a scramble. If you add a DD you make it to 98% chance of winning the sea battle.

With a BB alive + CR + CV you will need to add one Ftr to make arround a 94% chance of winning the sea battle. Add another Ftr to come close to a 100% chance.

Without a BB you will have to add more Planes and/or newly bought units/ships to make a Allied scramble less likely.

Example:
The CR + 3x Ftr’s + a CV to have a 94% chance.

However, a surviving BB is allways helpful and is a high valuable piece.
But it depends on how you will use it.
If you are able to keep it, combined with a few ships and planes who are watching over it, making a Allied early tactical landing on ATL side less possible and the US player has to spend more IPCs for the ATLantic.
Less stress for Axis Germany.

If the BB is gone and not at hand, you will have to buy units to protect the coastline and purchase a  DD blocker every now and then to prevent quickly build US strongolds on European side.