@barnee thanks let me check that out
Axis Victories (what's the "magic" trick?)
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Yeah but with most league games gone to balanced mod, the Japanese DOW on USSR is costly. Also, I really want that India factory before it gets strong enough to help Moscow too much. It takes a long time for Japan to make a big dent in the USSR income.
Regarding the J1 DOW, yeah I do see what you’re saying but you’re also thinning out the Japanese forces and I don’t think the UK BB is such a big deal. I suppose I have never tried holding back some troops from the Hunan battle - that could make sense. Although it may be better to just hope for less than two defensive hits or take a plane if that happens.
I’m not familiar with the balanced mod. I was referring to Japan selling out the Pac side of the board on or after J5 to use its air power to hit Moscow from one of the Western China provinces, which also dodges the Mongolian rule. Does the balanced mod do something else if Japan attacks?
How much does India produce against you? For me its not much after their round 1 buy. Usually they’ve got 5-15 ipc to spend over the next 2-3 rounds. J2 I bomb it and move 2 subs off Malaya to convoy it, then J3 you can convoy Calcutta itself, if you take Malaya. UKPac income goes from 17 to 10 to 7 on UK3. Maybe they sacrifice a transport for an extra 4ipc from Java.
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Ok, well with the balanced mod USSR gets up to another 6IPC/turn if Japan does a DOW on it. Not a rule I like, but there you have it.
My last couple of Axis games have been Sea Lion games so might not be the best comparison. Found a recent normal game. UK_Pac didn’t activate Sumatra but hit a bomber J2, mobilised 5inf UK2, 2inf UK3, nothing UK4 (could have bought 1inf), fell J5. May have lasted longer if they’d have activated Sumatra.
Another change in balanced mod is that UK_Pac gets an Indian Ocean NO, worth 3IPC/turn. Anyway, I don’t feel that BM changes the fundamentals of the game but it does tend to punish you for going off script.
Calcutta still gets at least 2IPC/turn which is not convoyable from West India and if you are trading Burma, that becomes 3IPC/turn providing their inf misses.
There is another option if USSR are stacking Leningrad. Just walk past it. Unless there’s artillery, they won’t have much attack strength. Then Moscow should be a cake walk.
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All of this sounds very easy. I think there is one KEY point I would like to mention. First of all the allied buy you refer to are sound. It indicates that you kind of now what you are doing. I am pretty sure your axis game is pretty good too. You say you don’t play online, I assume that means you only play live games. Live games and online games are two different games. If I play online I would never accept a bid less than 30. When I play live games I am fine with playing out of the box. Axis are harder to play live than online, because it is so much harder to calculate everything in great detail. This is much easier in online games with triple A. A short outline for axis
G1 buy sub, dest, carrier, Take out navy 106 (two subs) 110 and 111 (strafe to save BB)
G2 10 art Germany fast movers in W germany
G3 fast movers in Germany
G4 fast movers in Germany (move your main stack via bealrus, not via western ukraine)
G5 Fast movers in germany or planes or a comboI1 1 mech + 1 arm (dont take southern france, art and inf need to go towards russia I1),
harder to outline buys for I2 and so onJ1 buy 2 transport + 1 mic, take yuannan and three other chinese
J2 buy 1 carrier, 3 inf for mainland china, dest, sub, declare war, take borneo, kwangtung, Malaya, philiphines and any other allied islands, but protect your transports
J3 buy 1 carrier, 3 inf for main, subs and destroyers, secure DEI, protect transports, land some planes on celeb, sumantra to protect (if you activated them J2)
J4 buy more carriersThis strategy targets a G7 attack on Moscow when a G6 attack is obviously better. More importantly, it doesn’t appear to anticipate reaching Bryansk until G6. Getting there G5 is what you really want!
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Zhukov,
With Axis we don’t have a fixed strategy. We have tried J1 (with some rare axis victories).
A red line for Germany are Art/Inf and 1 DD on G1.
Then G2 attack Russia and buy Armour (recently we have changed this to 2 bombers, mech and Art).
Japan does a J1 with a 2 Tpt and 1 factory buy. If they wait until J2 to attack they sometimes buy 3 Tpt and go full China the first rounds.Usually Germany stealmates around moscow around G7 with US and GB Eur slowly advancing on the West.
My question is: do you play to take moscow (so a medium game) or do you play on the income and play in the long term (14-15 turns)? -
Usually Germany stealmates around moscow around G7 with US and GB Eur slowly advancing on the West.
My question is: do you play to take moscow (so a medium game) or do you play on the income and play in the long term (14-15 turns)?Not being able to take Moscow and having the Allies in France isn’t that big a deal for Germany if:
-Germany isn’t going to lose Berlin
-Italy isn’t going to lose Rome
-USSR is down to a few IPCs of income
-Japan is thriving in the PacificGermany should be able to hold off Britain and America long enough that Japan grows to match American income and either wins or forces some pressure (from America) off of Germany.
Maybe Germany is overestimating the Western Allies’ forces? From what I read, KJF is the preferred USA strategy, which means they won’t have much to devote to Europe. Of course, if the Japan play is ineffective, that’s a whole different issue. But it seems from earlier posts that Japan usually does well in your games.Taking Moscow quickly is not the only way to win. Taking Russia’s income works as well, and has the added effect of turning the economic balance toward the Axis.
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Zhukov,
With Axis we don’t have a fixed strategy. We have tried J1 (with some rare axis victories).
A red line for Germany are Art/Inf and 1 DD on G1.
Then G2 attack Russia and buy Armour (recently we have changed this to 2 bombers, mech and Art).
Japan does a J1 with a 2 Tpt and 1 factory buy. If they wait until J2 to attack they sometimes buy 3 Tpt and go full China the first rounds.Usually Germany stealmates around moscow around G7 with US and GB Eur slowly advancing on the West.
My question is: do you play to take moscow (so a medium game) or do you play on the income and play in the long term (14-15 turns)?I’d recommend trying for a G6 take on Moscow. If you can’t take Moscow on G6 (and a good Allies should be able to stop you), then use the mech/armor to take all the outlying territories (Siberia, etc) and/or go south to Persia and Egypt (depending on circumstances of course). So in this scenario, the buys for Germany would typically be G1 inf/art G2 mech/arm G3 mech/arm G4 bombers G5 bombers. Don’t spread yourself too thin–decide to focus on either UK or Russia and don’t stop until you take a capital…but if you can’t take a capital (like Moscow) right away, be sure to take every territory you can. Some players will get to Bryansk and then sit there and build up for 5 rounds, while failing to use the strategic opportunity (with the Russian army and Allied fighters stuck in a useless position defending Moscow) to take every territory they can and deny the Allies income. Germany has more mobile units and therefore has an overwhelming advantage in this “Moscow siege” scenario.
If you go with a J1 declaration try buying 3 tpt round 1 and then buy 1 or 2 factories on j2. If Allies are consistently getting the upper hand in your games, I’m guessing that Japan is not aggressive enough in the early going re securing the islands. In a J1 game, Japan should have all the money islands, Malaya, and part of New Guinea under control (thus denying the Allies all NOs) by the end of J3. And you should be able to get India by J6 (or alternatively, wipe out China on J6). Note that if you have a strong push on both Moscow and India (or China) on round 6, then Allies cannot defend both.
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Ideally you want to attack Russia G6-G8. Those are your best chances. I usually time everything so I hit g7 (I pretty much give up west germany norway etc and just have enough to hold germany usually so I have the maximum attack possible with no units between germany and Russia on the final assault).
A standard J1 dow will result in most games going your way. I do my J1 dow a little different now (I leave just 1 or 2 fighters on Japan,2 dd sub cruiser, to protect my 3 transport buy and if USA attacks I use all kamikaze rolls).
I see a burma stack from UK, I kill it J2 and take india J3 (no need buy an airbase since you can park your carriers below burma and get more air units in on india, all you need is naval base so there is savings in losing air for ground). -
Zhukov,
Yes, in recent games the Germans are taking more Russian territory and thus increasing their income and denying the Russians their income.
I guess that when you fail to take Moscow you go for a long game (14-15 rounds).
Do you attack USSR with Japan? I usually do. The plus side is the russian are getting less, but all too often, it sucks valuable Japanese ground forces needed in China in the early game. -
Zhukov,
Yes, in recent games the Germans are taking more Russian territory and thus increasing their income and denying the Russians their income.
I guess that when you fail to take Moscow you go for a long game (14-15 rounds).
Do you attack USSR with Japan? I usually do. The plus side is the russian are getting less, but all too often, it sucks valuable Japanese ground forces needed in China in the early game.IF you like to attack Russia with Japan, J1 is no good. That transport is too valuable. But J2 with a single tank, maybe, and a transport bought J1.
The reason to consider this is if you’re more or less trying to win on the Europe side. Japan attacking is about either taking income or freezing those Russian troops in place. However, if Japan does well in China they can also do damage that way, bombing Moscow, for instance, or using its air to weaken Russia before Germany attacks.
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Zhukov,
Yes, in recent games the Germans are taking more Russian territory and thus increasing their income and denying the Russians their income.
I guess that when you fail to take Moscow you go for a long game (14-15 rounds).
Do you attack USSR with Japan? I usually do. The plus side is the russian are getting less, but all too often, it sucks valuable Japanese ground forces needed in China in the early game.If you are devoting alot of resources to that (or if you are activating the Mongolia troops early on) that could be another reason Axis are having trouble. Japan’s main focus should be islands/China/India–sure take Siberian territories if they are free, but otherwise it’s a distraction.
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I agree with Zhukov – Japan is trying to triple its income over the first four turns, so you have to ask yourself what kind of return on investment you can expect from different attacks. If Russia abandons Siberia entirely, or only leaves 2 infantry there, then you can steamroll the infantry with forces in Manchuria plus one or two planes that weren’t really needed elsewhere, and pick up an extra 6 to 8 IPCs of income every turn – that’s a good return on investment. You’re committing about 25 IPCs of low-value troops and losing about 3 IPCs worth of troops to boost your income by 7 IPCs per turn. It pays for itself, quickly.
Same thing with attacking Hong Kong, Malaya, and Borneo – Hong Kong and Borneo are practically undefended, and Malaya only has four infantry defending it. So you bring down a few loaded transports to a central region of the board, in a sea zone where your capital ships can easily guard them. You commit about 50 IPCs’ worth of material, expect to lose about 6 IPCs worth of troops, and you boost your income by 10 IPCs per turn, plus you knock out UK Pacific and ANZACs’ national objectives. Very good return on investment.
But if you attack a well-defended Siberia, now you’re looking at committing 70 IPCs’ worth of high-value troops – you need enough infantry, tanks, and aircraft to kill 12 Soviet infantry plus 2 Soviet AAs. You won’t be able to gather all of that force all at once no matter what you do, so your progress will be slower, so your income only goes up by an average of 3 IPCs per turn in the crucial early turns. You can expect somewhat higher casualties, since you’re fighting a real defensive force. So now you’re committing 70 IPCs and losing 15 IPCs to gain 3 IPCs per turn. Very bad return on investment. Even if you technically make a profit of 1 or 2 IPCs over the course of the game, that’s not nearly enough to justify the attack. You need opportunities for big, fast, reliable profits, not opportunities for small, slow, unreliable profits.
Some people try to include the value of the Soviet defenders as part of this calculation, saying, oh, well, I killed off 50 IPCs’ worth of Russian infantry and AAAs, so it’s still a good trade. Wrong. Those defenders can’t be in Siberia and Moscow at the same time. If they stay to guard Siberia, you’ve removed them from Moscow just as effectively as if you killed them. If they retreat toward Moscow, then you invade Siberia, after the defenders are gone…because then you get a nice fat return on investment, i.e., you can sweep up the entire Soviet Far East with just two or three units. There’s never any reason to assault a stack of 14 Russian defenders in a Siberian territory. You will always have a juicier target somewhere else – or, if you don’t, that means someone has already won the game.
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If you go hard into siberia, well, you are probably dowing j3 or j2. I don’t like it unless Russia stacks up in amur and tempts me.
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If you are struggling to win as the axis, I suggest just playing for income, in which case spamming mech from germany, arty from ukraine and novgorod, and pushing to volgograd / caucasus etc, you will make bank.
But yes you will need to dow early with Japan to get Japan’s income high.
Think of it this way, Europe is hard to punch for the allies. USA is super far away, UK has to figure out how to produce units to hold the middle east / support Russia. So UK isn’t going to build boats and d-day very heavily like in other AA boards.
~The axis can make allies income fast, which is the flaw of the global board.
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Zhukov,
With Axis we don’t have a fixed strategy. We have tried J1 (with some rare axis victories).
A red line for Germany are Art/Inf and 1 DD on G1.
Then G2 attack Russia and buy Armour (recently we have changed this to 2 bombers, mech and Art).
Japan does a J1 with a 2 Tpt and 1 factory buy. If they wait until J2 to attack they sometimes buy 3 Tpt and go full China the first rounds.Usually Germany stealmates around moscow around G7 with US and GB Eur slowly advancing on the West.
My question is: do you play to take moscow (so a medium game) or do you play on the income and play in the long term (14-15 turns)?Ok, a few points. Dump the G1 DD buy. You can’t combine it with 6art. You also don’t need a surface warship to block the USSR lend lease NO. If you are strafing SZ111, you’ll want a sub buy which still allows the hit soak in SZ112. Even if you are intending to run south to the Mid east, you still want the maximum threat to Moscow.
What does Japan do with its 3 starting TTs? They should all be positioned to strike the DEI and/or Malaya. New transports can hit the Philippines. Overland troops can hit Kwangtung, you shouldn’t need to use amphibious forces for that. Later on, Japan can use its navy to block SZ42 (Java) to protect 3 of the money islands from USN based at SZ54. Philippines isn’t that much of a weak point - with a few ground units and planes on it, it shouldn’t fall very easily. The real weak point is the Carolines. From there, they can hit almost everything.
I agree with Zhukov44 about Siberia being a distraction, unless of course something non standard happens. Perhaps if they stack Amur round 1, although even then you may only be playing for Europe victory from that point.
Make sure you can counter attack a US landing on Normandy or Southern France, best done with a few artillery in France combined with mechs in W Germany (which double as defenders of W Germany). Don’t forget that the UK can reinforce with both air and land. Of course, there may be times that your air is more needed for a Moscow take down and can’t be present here so you need to deal with this later.
Another of my non standard plays when playing OOB is to leave Normandy French so USA can’t take it. I also attack Southern France not just for the port on the Med (which I don’t find super useful) but also to ensure that Germany have 70 IPCs in case they go Sea Lion.
Don’t forget strategic bombing on Calcutta and Moscow. It’s a great value proposition if you don’t house rule fighters attacking and defending on a 2 (instead of 1) in SBR air battles, and sometimes even then. A skilled Allied player will make convoy disruption on Calcutta difficult but if the opportunity presents then put a couple of subs in SZ39.
Anyway, with my post on the previous page, I’ve given you a fair few of what things should be done as axis to win nearly every time.
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Thank you for the feedback info on your Axis play so far.
I would recommend a Stratbombing campagne on Moscow when you have taken E. Poland.
A G1 buy of two StratB’s followed by a G2 10x Arm plus 1x Ftr and G3 Mech builds.
I2 dow taking E.Pol and Germany follows with dow on G3.
From there you bomb Moscow each round to submission.
Start off with this strategy and refine it.
Refresh your Bmbr losses or even add one each round from G4 onward.
Take Novo soon and Ukraine and build Artys and Arms there or what you just need.
Usually Mechs from Novo and Artys/Arms from Ukraine.
If Germany controlls W. Ukraine build a mIC there too. -
But you don’t need strat bombers g1 to hit Moscow from g4.
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But you don’t need strat bombers g1 to hit Moscow from g4.
What I like about strat bombers early is that they can also keep London modest and by threatening bombing London.
And don’t underestimate the power of a large air force taking out a stack of Russian without any ground support. Just killing it, expecting some losses and remove a big Russian threat before it can retreat to Moscow. -
The DD is used to kill the russian sub who convoys the entire game + serves to protect any transport ships you might built for a sea lion.
The Japenese 3 TT are used to take the money islands. Off course we don’t attack the russian stack in siberia, that would be stupid. All the things you mention, we do as well. The only thing we don’t always exploit is the strategic bombing of Moscow and India. Do you think this might be a decisive step? -
The DD is used to kill the russian sub who convoys the entire game + serves to protect any transport ships you might built for a sea lion.
The Japenese 3 TT are used to take the money islands. Off course we don’t attack the russian stack in siberia, that would be stupid. All the things you mention, we do as well. The only thing we don’t always exploit is the strategic bombing of Moscow and India. Do you think this might be a decisive step?Strategic Bombers not only increase your ability to project power across the board thus forcing the allies to play safer, but they actively limit the number of pieces India and Moscow can put on the board. Strategic Bombers are how you win a battle of attrition instead of getting stuck in a stalemate.
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The DD is used to kill the russian sub who convoys the entire game + serves to protect any transport ships you might built for a sea lion.
The Japenese 3 TT are used to take the money islands. Off course we don’t attack the russian stack in siberia, that would be stupid. All the things you mention, we do as well. The only thing we don’t always exploit is the strategic bombing of Moscow and India. Do you think this might be a decisive step?Yeah, I understand what the DD is for. Still, you can buy it G2 and it does the same job. Germany doesn’t have many artillery in its starting push so having another one is pretty helpful.
Strat bombing is really useful for stopping Moscow and Calcutta from building too many units. If you don’t do that, the two most vulnerable capitals won’t fall as easily. So yes, I think it is plausible that such an omission could be decisive.
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