Europe

Roundels mean nothing and they are not accurate anyway. nations did not use them to represent their positions on the map. Least of all they did not use what are primarily aircraft icons to denote national conquests. This is why Roundels and their ‘accuracy’ are meaningless to axis and allies.

@Flashman:

The Swastika can be replaced by the Prussian Cross, and I think we can all accept why this needs to be done.  More serious is the use of the Allied Italian roundel for Axis Italy, which makes no sense whatever.  It’s rather like using the emblem of the GAB for American control markers.

I for one can not accept that this needs to be done. What are you afraid of a swastika? It has been around a lot longer than the Nazis.

@Brain:

@Flashman:

The Swastika can be replaced by the Prussian Cross, and I think we can all accept why this needs to be done.  More serious is the use of the Allied Italian roundel for Axis Italy, which makes no sense whatever.  It’s rather like using the emblem of the GAB for American control markers.

I for one can not accept that this needs to be done. What are you afraid of a swastika? It has been around a lot longer than the Nazis.

+1, I’m in the same boat m8. People just make it a bigger problem than it needs to be. I understand the censorship in Europe, but here in North America?

@Krupp:

I for one can not accept that this needs to be done. What are you afraid of a swastika? It has been around a lot longer than the Nazis.

+1, I’m in the same boat m8. People just make it a bigger problem than it needs to be. I understand the censorship in Europe, but here in North America?

For the record, the censorship is only in Germany from a legal point of view. I guess WOTC want not put the swastika just to ensure they can sell the game in Germany

You know, it’s a matter of extremes. In Germany they take one extreme and here in Spain we have the oppositte (we still have Franco’s simbols in some public places and there is still a horse statue of Franco, in Melilla if I remember right). If I could choose, I’d prefer german extreme in this case, but in fact i’d choose a balanced approach (fascist simbols forbidden in public places but still usable in private uses like the matter we are talking. Exaltation of fascism must be forbidden, of course

More data about fascism in Spain: last summer (I mean July, 2009), I was on holidays in Malaga, Spain, and suddenly I saw two cars filled with Falange’s guys (Falange was the fascist party legal in our dictatorship). They were celebrating the start of Spanish Civil War  :x , but the worst is that they had a official policial escort to protect them  :-P It was scary, but luckily the people didn’t supported them. At least, fascists are a very marginal group nowadays in Spain, but still is annoying that police protected them: such class of manifestations should be forbidden because go against democratic values  :|
So it’s not a minor issue in fact

@oztea:

the map is my edit of a previous map i found on A&A.org

I think the previous map was by Der Panzinator.  There used to be a full-sized (global) version of it on his website, plus an earlier prototype and one or two related maps, but his website no longer seems to exist.

For the record, the censorship is only in Germany from a legal point of view. I guess WOTC want not put the swastika just to ensure they can sell the game in Germany

You know, it’s a matter of extremes. In Germany they take one extreme and here in Spain we have the oppositte (we still have Franco’s simbols in some public places and there is still a horse statue of Franco, in Melilla if I remember right). If I could choose, I’d prefer german extreme in this case, but in fact i’d choose a balanced approach (fascist simbols forbidden in public places but still usable in private uses like the matter we are talking. Exaltation of fascism must be forbidden, of course

More data about fascism in Spain: last summer (I mean July, 2009), I was on holidays in Malaga, Spain, and suddenly I saw two cars filled with Falange’s guys (Falange was the fascist party legal in our dictatorship). They were celebrating the start of Spanish Civil War  :x , but the worst is that they had a official policial escort to protect them  :-P It was scary, but luckily the people didn’t supported them. At least, fascists are a very marginal group nowadays in Spain, but still is annoying that police protected them: such class of manifestations should be forbidden because go against democratic values  :|
So it’s not a minor issue in fact

Wouldn’t silencing fascists also be going against democratic values?

They should not start after Dunkirk. I mean, what’s the point of adding France if they’re just going to make it fall first turn without a chance? Should we not start at the beginning?

Yeah A&A 39. That’s what I want to see

Crikey, I remember Der Panzinator… whatever happened to that guy?

Larry made his decisions for a reason.

yeah, but was it a good reason?

I personally don’t have a problem with the Swastika, but I understand why some people do.  In fact I use it on my own maps as you can see from the link below, but this is not a commercial design.

Using aircraft markings rather than national flags gets round the problem by using the German cross, and I also prefer the simple Star for the Soviets rather than the idealogical (and inaccurate) hammer and sickle design always used in A&A.

However using Allied roundels for Axis Italy is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

Roundels have no meaning whatsoever except to identify them to other aviators who may shoot them down. IN the game they ONLY represent icons so that people can identity something from that nations control from another. They could be chickens or pieces of pizza as long as in the GAME YOU CAN SAY ‘Hey this is German and that is Italian’

The armies of either nation would be using many different icons including the twisted cross, or a dozen other symbols depending on the service and unit.

To fuss about what is Historically ‘correct’ makes no sence whatsoever because this is a game. Of course your not going to use a hammer and sickle for the American icon, but any decent star pattern will do the job.

I agree that any marker will do the job, so why don’t we use what is historically accurate? I think you could use chickens for France. :-D

Yea, France has been kicked around in nearly every major war. Many of those wars were on french soil, so I can see why they flinch at the notion of war. I’m just glad the war they helped win was our revolution, better late then never. Vive La France

Not at all sure the last thing was a good idea….

So Napoleon never won a battle, then?

The Great War in the west was a German victory, then?  France took more casualties than the British Empire and US combined.

Never heard of the Hundred Years War, then?

Take a trip to Verdun.

They used to know how to fight, but that was a long time ago.

But the other dude said french never won a mayor war and that’s not true. They lost in 1940, but I must add to Nappy, Verdun and the other examples another data: Poitiers, 732, where they stopped the muslims. We could be talking arab now if they had lost that one. And the french soldier in WWII fought as bravely as any other, just they had horrible leaders

actually the most commonly spoken language in france today is arabic, and not french. So you can take that “victory” away. I like france I really do. but they arent known for winning conflicts. just making excellent cuisine