From my point of view, I break down my current game with Squirecam this way. I presented a strategy that would draw Japan’s eyes away from it’s surefire path to the big bucks (around 40 or less) AND put the Japanese out of position AND gave my Asian allies time to surge, making China difficult and Calcutta impossible.
Squirecam shrewdly preempted my strategy. I kept building in the Pac 100 percent until the West Coast was threatened. This was easily countered. The tactics changed from waves of subs because the enemy let me draw him away from the gold. I think a weaker player might have fallen for a VC grab, but I woke up to it and made it impossible.
He also considered SeaLion, but I was able to counter that by a retreat from the Med and an aggressive build of attackers that made the Atlantic unsafe. It is quite an unusual game and worth a look. Lastly a rush on Moscow is being made that looks to fall short.
So it is my contention that the strategy was effective and I am more than willing to try again. A fun crazy game.
@gen-manstein I added Russian fast movers to China from the West. I own most of China.
@crockett36 said in Converting to KJF:
From my point of view, I break down my current game with Squirecam this way. I presented a strategy that would draw Japan’s eyes away from it’s surefire path to the big bucks (around 40 or less) AND put the Japanese out of position AND gave my Asian allies time to surge, making China difficult and Calcutta impossible.
Squirecam shrewdly preempted my strategy. I kept building in the Pac 100 percent until the West Coast was threatened. This was easily countered. The tactics changed from waves of subs because the enemy let me draw him away from the gold. I think a weaker player might have fallen for a VC grab, but I woke up to it and made it impossible.
He also considered SeaLion, but I was able to counter that by a retreat from the Med and an aggressive build of attackers that made the Atlantic unsafe. It is quite an unusual game and worth a look. Lastly a rush on Moscow is being made that looks to fall short.
So it is my contention that the strategy was effective and I am more than willing to try again. A fun crazy game.
Yeah I wanted to just see if Germany would make it. I think they would have to slow and stage now, having Volgograd and Caucus for income and try to bleed $.
I think your strategy is interesting, but you didnt stick with it. If you hadnt, Germany would have taken Moscow, but I wanted to see how bad off Japan would have been. As it was all of the subs moved to the Med with both UK and USA. So Japan never lost its fleet and can now get the money islands.
The next time you test it, I would not change so you can figure out whether it actually works. Keep everything in the Pacific and see what happens.
The only thing I would change from the axis perspective is to simply kill the russians first. Leaving them is too restrictive.
@gen-manstein said in Converting to KJF:
@thedesertfox said in Converting to KJF:
@gen-manstein
Yeah. 6 infantry already across land of no value, its nothing short of a small insignificant inconvenience for Japan
This should have more than 6 inf. Japan needs to pay for it. Or another way is add more inf to China
I disagree on this. The only way more inf would be fair is if USSR cant attack Japan first.
There’s more to my comment but not the place.
@squirecam @squirecam again let me say, if you play the way Japan usually does, I will implement my plan. You did my work for me by draining the Asia army white. I will always adjust, trying to make the fight t1 to t3 all about the mid pacific. Japan can’t recover, us attention goes to the Atlantic.
Try again?
@crockett36 said in Converting to KJF:
@squirecam @squirecam again let me say, if you play the way Japan usually does, I will implement my plan. You did my work for me by draining the Asia army white. I will always adjust, trying to make the fight t1 to t3 all about the mid pacific. Japan can’t recover, us attention goes to the Atlantic.
Try again?
We will have to agree to disagree. Japan has its entire fleet, no warships of any note are in the pacific and Japan has the phillipines and will have all the $ islands next turn. It still has Hawaii currently.
I thought the point of this test was to see if the USA could sub stall or defeat Japan. If you want to test that, we could try again. But you have to stay within the test parameters.
But IMHO moving subs into the med actually shows the strategy wasn’t working, or you were not willing to lose Moscow and so you abandoned the pacific.
Had you stayed, you might have eventually amassed 21 USA subs to attack the fleet. But they would have died too. And by then Moscow would have fallen.
There is nothing wrong with attacking Italy. It’s the weakest Axis power and very vulnerable. But that isnt the point of the test. Sub stalling the Italians is easy. Japan, not so much.
If your point is to simply abandon the pacific then there is no use going with another test. The title of this thread, and the test, was to KJF. That didnt happen and wouldn’t anytime soon as you took your subs away.
If we try again as you say, then we need to play out your Pacific theory. You keep all of the subs and air in the Pacific to see if Japan’s fleet is destroyed and the income nerfed before Moscow falls. By this, japan has no mainland income (and no russian income substituting for China) and no islands either, except for Japan.
I will make the same Axis moves with the possible exception of attacking the Russians on turn 1. So you know exactly what the Japanese plan is.
I am also unclear as to what you mean by “play Japan the way it’s usually played”. By that do you mean completely ignore the USA so it can build up at will and safely move around the Pacific? Because that’s a mistake.
@gen-manstein said in Converting to KJF:
There’s more to my comment but not the place.
I’m interested in your thoughts.
It pertains to house rules so most won’t be interested in
@squirecam we will have to disagree. Japan is in ruins. a look at Japan s income indicates your total defeat in Pacific. Ergo my strategy succeeded.
@crockett36 said in Converting to KJF:
@squirecam we will have to disagree. Japan is in ruins. a look at Japan s income indicates your total defeat in Pacific. Ergo my strategy succeeded.
???
Japan has 39 IPC. They will get at least 12 more guaranteed next turn. They are the only power in the pacific with a fleet. In fact, its still their entire starting fleet, losing no ships at all. You have wierd ideas if you consider that “ruins” or a total defeat…
Your strategy, which you abandoned, wasnt working. Your strategy was to destroy the IJN.
@crockett36 said in Converting to KJF:
@crockett36 korea does not factor into this strategy. Especially given the convoy situation. It’s about destroying the ijn.
@crockett36 said in Converting to KJF:
@crockett36 get the ijn focused on usa and lock horns until death do we part. Everyone else takes care of the rest of the world
None of that happened. The IJN is undamged. The USA was wiped at Hawaii. The allied subs you purchased fled the Pacific.
But other people can view the game and make up their own minds.
DF, take a look at the game file below.
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/37066/squirecam-vs-crockett/93?_=1623085705877
@squirecam Perhaps I can make myself clearer with a revision to the post
Converting to a CJF
So up until now I’ve been solidly a KGF guy. Guard against the vapid VC win, and go to town in Europe. However, the politics affects the navy much more in the Atlantic.
With Japan starting at 26, it might be easier to trip them up on their way to 64 than to trip up Germany. Thus I propose a CJF. This is to draw Japanese attention away from Calcutta, China, the money islands, Russia and Australia. You will do whatever it takes to draw the IJN toward Wake or Hawaii Islands. This is for the first 2 rounds at least, 3 normally and possibly 4. Then proceed as need dictates.
You will know you are finding success if:
Japan’s income is between 20 and 41.
The Chinese are making more than 16.
UK Pac is making more than 15.
Anzac is making more than 20.
The Japanese go before America. You must react:
If the IJN moves to or stays in the Mid Pac, you have already half succeeded. They will likely not have the money islands before t4. Calcutta can’t be attacked before t6. China can we a fortress! Ask for aggression from your Asian allies. They should be preparing to recapture Hong Kong before it has even fallen. Perhaps build a sub out of Delhi to stalk unescorted transports. Don’t let them grab income. Anzac can start grabbing money islands turn one.
If Japan attacks Pearl, this is also helpful. Especially if they don’t capture the island. They must move to the Carolines to get the movement bonus. Precious time is being wasted.
If Japan does the standard move to 36 or a J1 attack on the Phil Islands, we may have an opportunity. I discovered that a vast majority of the American units can make their way to Wake Island. Bring transports and units and drop a naval base t1 and you are in position to move to Guam. Anzac can contribute all air and sea units by t2 and can land on newly captured islands to act as scramblers. You can put out blockers as well.
Your purchases would be subs and planes and an occasional destroyer t1, 2, and 3 so that if the force were attacked your reserves would counter attack. I’m calling this the Banana Split.
I assume the death of the initial navy. It’s the reserves and their reserves (more planes and subs) that draw units into the same kill zone. So the initial casualty rate is say 20 or 30 percent of the IJN. The reserves kill another 10 or 20 percent AND makes the battlefield Wake. The 3rd wave goes at Wake and decimates past a threshold that makes the Japanese threat of Calcutta unalterably behind. It is US vs Japan, mano y mano. China thrives; UK sends troops to Yunnan and planes to ME or Moscow.
A capital ship race is sure to fail because you are afraid of losing the expensive units. Try a game where you buy zero capital ships. You depend on the airbases on the board. What I am trying to do is to kill at least 50 percent of the IJN on the cheap OR make Japan buy a shiny expensive worthless navy while the army starves. Navy is the one thing they should not buy since they need to outproduce their enemies on the continent. You are succeeding.
My reserves are planes that can hit the sz around Wake and then land on Wake. And subs which can reach Wake from the west coast. By turn 4 the IJN will need to attend to other matters. When they do, I could reconstruct a fleet if I have to and possibly move fighters to Guam. From there you can land in Yunnan or fortify and move on Phil Islands, having made transit in that area dangerous or impossible. You can also venture to the North Pacific and drop units off in Russia or convoy with subs. Give the Japanese no free lunch.
A J1 move south would allow the Wake Island staging to proceed two full turns without recourse. By then, it might be too late for the Japanese.
G40 is universally recognized as imbalanced in favor of the Axis. I don’t disagree. I’m talking about reshaping the map, the sides, sacrificing, slowing down Europe all just to see if maybe, just maybe I can grab the IJN s attention in the Mid Pac and stunt Japan’s income for 1 to 3 turns. It’s certainly an entertaining puzzle for me.
Korea does not factor into this strategy. Especially given the convoy situation. It’s about shrinking the Japanese balloon before it blows up.
Russia does play a part in this. They hold their Siberian troops near Japan. Not necessarily Amur, but close. Make them attack you. Make them activate the Mongolians. If they leave the area, take over Manchuria. Either way, you pin the troops and make them useless. We like infantry that never get used. You might also consider sending all Russian fast movers to western China to recapture the road if taken by the Japanese.
Japan is more fragile than we thought. By focusing on Japan for at most four turns, China and UKpac and Anzac should be able to contend with the Japanese army. Then you as America can commit powerfully to Europe. Perhaps with the same air power or navy that may has run roughshod over the Pac.
@squirecam The IJN is undamaged because you sacrificed Asia and the money islands for the first 4 turns to defeat my plan. Your income at one point was 23. I have revised my post to make it more flexible. It was never not flexible. But it is specifically flexible now.
KJF means killing Japan first. If your plan is to take Italy, then its KIF.
I was willing to help you with your strategy because I do think an actual KJF is possible and worth trying. But what you originally posted was getting rid of the IJN. That isnt happening with 2-3 rounds of purchases and then fleeing into the atlantic.
What you’ve posted as a modification now isnt a KJF. And you shouldn’t advertise it as such either.
If Japan is going to be beaten then it needs to lose its fleet. Taking the china coast doesnt do much if Japan has its fleet because Japan can still get the money Islands along with malaya and FIC and other territories China troops cannot enter.
Yes, Japan had one turn of convoy losses where they had lost 8 and had 23. Their last turn they had 39 and would easily have high 40s on turn 8. I would trade one turn of 23 for my entire starting fleet and no allied fleets in the pacific. A fleet you needed in the Atlantic to save Moscow.
But it isnt worth continuing this discussion as It’s not making any progress towards an actual KJF. Which was the point of this thread in the first place.
I still say that an actual KJF is possible and I am willing to discuss the ways to accomplish that.
@squirecam completely disagree. Three rounds of pac builds is a modified kjf.
the pac fight isn’t over. You are way out of position to wage any war in the north pac. It is US turn. Sorry about the delay. The heat wipes me out.
Against many Japanese plans, I could have played out my strategy. You didn’t allow that to happen. Here is a more standard j1. The aim was always economic. I don’t care about wiping out the IJN. That might have been poetic hyperbole. I care about winning.
Squirecam has been a very literal reader of my posts. Therefore let me adjust to him and Larry’s creation. I am going to change the strategy to CJF. With the current rule set, I believe the allies have to cripple one side, then the other. After not losing, we can think about killing Japan or Germany.
@crockett36 What you are trying to point out is that you try to achieve victory in the Pacific by not losing.
You keep the IJN busy in the area around Wake en Sz6 so they can’t boost their income and thus in the long run the Allies in the pacific will outproduce them.
Correct me if i’m wrong.
@cornwallis 100 % correct
@cornwallis you should check out the game. Lots of fun. He made the rules look ridiculous by parking his navy in Pearl Harbor as a non combat move t 3. He tried pac Vc win, Sealion set up, capture of Egypt, Moscow crush, Calcutta invasion. I guarantee you’re entertained. It has been FUN!
@crockett36 How can i see the game?
