[Global 1940] Reasons for a cruiser.

@Guam-Solo said in [Global 1940] Reasons for a cruiser.:

@Sgt-Mclusky Yes - “ocean” is accurate. This topic is fresh for me because I just went through a lot of old threads about cruisers. There is one started by Young Grasshopper that is good and I think there are links in that thread to some of the other better threads. Argothair and Baron-Münchhausen also have a lot good thoughts on cruisers.

I think you may get few responses here. Many of the guys on this website have already posted a great deal of content on this subject and may be worn out by it.

I have a small group of guys here in Guam who play periodically and we have been working on a Pacific house rules expansion. We want to involve cruisers more, but also really want to see battles for the islands scattered throughout the Pacific. In many of our games the Japanese Navy and US Navy consolidate their fleets over many turns building towards a massive battle. One of the ways we are trying to get Japan and the US to divide and conquer the Pacific islands is to upgrade and customize the cruisers. After reading through the OCEAN of content on cruisers I landed on three types of cruisers:

Cruiser Upgrades & Customizing
All cruisers have a total movement of 3 for Combat & Noncombat combined. All cruisers are 1 hit kills and use OOB rules for bombardment (except Light Cruiser Transport has modifications to its bombardment rules).
Heavy Cruiser – A3(4)-D3(4)-M3-Cost13 unit. Designed for long range, high speed with heavier caliber naval guns. Attack/Defend at a 4 when fighting in a sea zone where NO other battleships are present (axis or allies).

Light Cruiser Transport – 3-3-3-12 unit. Functions like OOB cruiser with three additions. 1. It can carry one Elite infantry (Marine or SNLF). 2. This unit may support amphibious landings on islands with bombardment in each round of combat with defenders returning fire if killed by bombardment. 3. One transport may be paired and get a +1 movement with cruiser as long as they move together start to end.

Light Cruiser Flak Tower - 3-2-3-11 unit. Smaller naval guns means it loses defensive strength against other war ships, but it has been upgraded with AA guns that provide AA ability. When combined with other ships to form concentric circles of air defense within a flotilla the AA strength goes up.
AA Fire - 2 roles @1 prior to combat. In Defense: When paried with a carrier its 3@1 prior to combat, and if a triumvirate of cruiser-carrier-battleship then 4 rolls@1 prior to combat (with a ratio of at least 1 plane per roll). Also, every subsequent round of combat there is 1 roll@1 if the triumvirate holds undamaged. There is a max of 3 Flak Cruisers on the board.

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The hope is that the cruiser’s new features specifically aid their Navy’s ability to spread out and go after islands. Our group is “cutting their teeth” on these Pacific house rules. As we play we might see the need for modification - but for now maybe it helps you.

Ya you’ll have to see how these play out in game. The regular transport should not get a +1 movement just because its with a Cruiser. I can see giving a L Cruiser Transport able too carry 2 Elites instead.

I see now you have a cap buy on Flak Cruiser because looking at your numbers with plane shots with bonuses is the piece I would buy all the time.

I probably wouldn’t buy any heavy Cruisers.
I crunched your numbers and there not bad. Here’s your numbers.
BB A4 D4 M2 C20 SH4 2 hits A1.26 D1.26
HC A3/4 D3/4 M3 C13 SH3 A.43/.57 D.43/.57
LCT A3 D3 M3 C12 SH3 A.50 D.50
LFC A3 D2 M3 C11 SH3 A.50 D.33 2@1 3@1 4@1

But for cost I wouldn’t buy H Cruisers. Here’s a couple of ways to go if you want.

BB A5 D5 M2 C20 SH4 2 hits A1.58 D1.58
HC A4 D4 M3 C12 SH3 A.67 D.67
LCT A3 D3 M3 C12 SH2 A.50 D.50 transport 2 Elites
LFC A3 D2 M3 C12 SH2 A.50 D.33 2@1 Pl FSTRO
or
BB A4 D4 M2 C20 SH4 2 hits A1.26 D1.26
HC A3/4 D3/4 C12 SH3 A.50/.67 D.50/.67
LCT A3 D3 C12 SH2 A.50 D.50 transport 2 Elites
LFC A3 D2 C12 SH2 A.50 D.33 2@1

These numbers are based on cost to hit power.
For cost It should take 2 H. cruisers to kill a BB.
BB A5 1.58
2HC D8 1.34
or
BB A4 1.26
2HC D6 1.00 Cruiser loses its D4 bonus according to your rule. HC still some what weak for cost.
If you keep all the same for testing then I’d only make the cost for HC from C13 to C12.

I can see where your going with these different Cruisers for Certain things to happen with certain fleets.
HC with LCT and LCF with carriers.

As far as Shore shots every round that is over kill. Shore shots weren’t that accurate but your game your call.

For a just keeping cruiser as one piece for rest go with
Cruiser A2 D2 M3 C12 SH2 Transport 2 elites and can take a hit towards a plane or ship for every round of combat.

Good Luck with your test games with this. Post results.

@SS-GEN Thanks for crunching the numbers and for feedback. We are going to play a game and test it in two weeks. Just don’t have time to do it before that. I appreciate the thought about not giving the LCT the ability to move a transport with it +1. I’ll probably change that and just allow the LCT to carry 2 elites. The +1 to transports was the one rule I didn’t like (LOL) but we were trying to create a mechanic for smaller, faster groups of ships to forage outward and do some damage.

I read that heavier cruisers made longer runs without capital ships but leading groups of destroyers in the Pacific theater. The could be bullies in battles where they were the biggest ship, but if they came up against a battleship they didn’t fare as well. That is the thinking behind giving a +1 on attack and defense to the HC when engaging enemy ships where no battleship is against them. As a player I’d buy them and send them out with transports to conquer.

We also have a light carrier that we give 3 movements to so they can bring one fighter on the voyage with these cruiser/destroyer groups. I read that light carriers were faster than escort carriers and had the ability to participate in fleet operations with better range whereas the slower escort carriers protected convoys or joined up to lend support to amphibious landings.

@SS-GEN said in [Global 1940] Reasons for a cruiser.:

As far as Shore shots every round that is over kill. Shore shots weren’t that accurate but your game your call.

We’ll play test it and make the change if it is too much.

@SS-GEN @barney Any thoughts on the house rule incentives for going after islands. We are trying one time bonuses instead of island groups having IPC values. Bonuses may be a little high after adding in units with the IPC bonus.

@Guam-Solo Ya I was going to respond to your island bonuses too but you beat me to it. I was gonna crunch them numbers too. Looks like Japan can get a good jump on them. But Japan needs to activate there home owned islands before they get the money for them at start of game ?
All these ideas can force you to make setup changes and or tweaks to islands.

Do you receive island territory value money too ?
You need to include the Solomon and New G islands. Need to give Anzac a bonus or 2.
No Bonuses for Dutch islands ?
Mine and barneys island Pacific tests is posted above in this topic thread. Scroll backup.

@Guam-Solo said in [Global 1940] Reasons for a cruiser.:

@SS-GEN said in [Global 1940] Reasons for a cruiser.:

As far as Shore shots every round that is over kill. Shore shots weren’t that accurate but your game your call.

We’ll play test it and make the change if it is too much.

Another way is in my game I do have destroyers getting a shore shot.
D12 First round only
BB 4 33%
CR 3 25%
DD 2 16%
D6
BB 3 50%
CR 2 33%
DD 1 16%

Watch out ! Baron’s back and lurking !

There can only be three maximum types of cruisers
Battlecruiser 3-3-3-(2 hits) cost 15
Heavy Cruiser (CA)( OOB specs, but move 3 always or 4 from port)
Light Cruiser (CL) 3-2-3- cost 9?

But the problem is were dealing with d6 system, limited needs to be d12 to make this feasible

I’ll be back with some numbers.

H. Cruiser way to strong for 2 hits for the cost.
Best for cost
BB C20. A5 D5. Way over priced part of proble
HC C12. A4 D4
CR C11. A3 D3
LC. C10. A2 D2

@SS-GEN Why buy a light cruiser if it attacks/defends at 2? Just buy a destroyer. Unless LC has some special feature… SS-GEN you state earlier in this thread that you add other features to your cruiser to offset the lower attack and defense @2?

LC moves 3.
All 3 cruisers m3
Use LC as a transporter

Cruiser A2 D2 M3 C12 SH2 carry 2 elites
Can take a hit towards a plane or ship you mean ?

@SS-GEN Yes - that is what I was thinking. Otherwise it is just a more expensive destroyer (with no anti-sub capabilities).

@SS-GEN said in [Global 1940] Reasons for a cruiser.:

Cruiser A2 D2 M3 C12 SH2 carry 2 elites
Can take a hit towards a plane or ship you mean ?

This here is just for having 1 cruiser only in game.

@SS-GEN said in [Global 1940] Reasons for a cruiser.:

Watch out ! Baron’s back and lurking !

No kidding !!!
Somehow, YG provided the mechanic to solve the Cruiser and Battleship issues with other warships.

Simply give 12 IPCs Cruiser two dice @3 for attack or defense and 2 hits 20 IPCs Battleship two dice @4.
That way, their firepower will be emphasized over Destroyer or Subs.

Nothing else to change, except considering the opening setup which was not built for real gunboats.
In that case, round 1 can be an exception. Assuming full power at the beginning of second round.

@baron-Münchhausen Do both dice count as hits, or are you taking the best roll of the two dice for one hit?

@Guam-Solo said in [Global 1940] Reasons for a cruiser.:

@baron-Münchhausen Do both dice count as hits, or are you taking the best roll of the two dice for one hit?

Both dice will count in that case.
Making it possible that 2 DDs attacking 1 Cruiser, every ships can sink in a single combat round.

@Guam-Solo said in [Global 1940] Reasons for a cruiser.:

@SS-GEN @barney Any thoughts on the house rule incentives for going after islands. We are trying one time bonuses instead of island groups having IPC values. Bonuses may be a little high after adding in units with the IPC bonus.

Hi Guam

Looks like you guys are having fun : ) Cool idea adding units when you take something over. It does seem like a lot to keep track of. Do you get the inf and the airfield and naval gun or just your choice of one ?

I don’t see how there wouldn’t already be a AF on 2nd conquest if you get one the first time. Anyway, seems like a lot of fun. : ) Would think it would make for more battle for sure.

Airfields look way cool. Think Argo is doing something similar in his, Anniversary mod ? Can’t remember.

Not my idea but, I use the “make all valueless Pacific Islands worth a buck” thing. Found that still didn’t seem to do enough to promote battle, so gave an extra 2 bucks when they got conquered. That seemed to help. Also gave the “Big 4” Java, Borneo etc… the 2 buck bonus but only starting rd 4 I think it is, so as to still keep them as a prime target.

Anyway it seems to encourage some more action and some Islands are just naturally strategic anyway.

Let us know how your games go.

@baron-Münchhausen said in [Global 1940] Reasons for a cruiser.:

@SS-GEN said in [Global 1940] Reasons for a cruiser.:

Watch out ! Baron’s back and lurking !

No kidding !!!
Somehow, YG provided the mechanic to solve the Cruiser and Battleship issues with other warships.

Simply give 12 IPCs Cruiser two dice @3 for attack or defense and 2 hits 20 IPCs Battleship two dice @4.
That way, their firepower will be emphasized over Destroyer or Subs.

Nothing else to change, except considering the opening setup which was not built for real gunboats.
In that case, round 1 can be an exception. Assuming full power at the beginning of second round.
You saying 2 hits for cruiser or battleship only in your wording ?
Is the 2 dice for first round only ?
Is the 2 dice with fleets with planes only ?
Battleships shouldn’t get to take a hit on a plane if 2 dice are representing AA gun.
I can see giving Cruiser 2 dice but first round only.

I am testing my cruiser at d12
A4 D4 M3 C10 SH3 can take a hit towards a plane or ship for every round of combat