18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2

MrRoboto · Jan 14, 2019, 4:40 PM

Well Max D means, that my submarine hit will tip your carrier.

MrRoboto · Jan 14, 2019, 4:44 PM

Because at that point, you wouldn’t know how I continue to roll…
So Max defense at that point should mean tipping something, instead of losing something, wouldn’t you agree?

666 · Jan 15, 2019, 5:38 PM

@MrRoboto including the ss in the battle was to use it as fodder, if possible, and in that fashion have max d, as possibly being able to have an additional defensive roll. By not selecting it you effectively removed it from battle.
Also, I believe triple a handles this incorrectly as all attacking dice should be rolled before casualties are selected, I think. Nonetheless, i feel I should have a tac to roll on D for round 2, with the removal of the ss as intended and a fgt to roll in a round three if you wanted to continue the battle.
I guess this just goes to show that with naval battles i shouldn’t assume anything and ask for loses by round but I thought my intent was obvious. If the dice for this battle weren’t so “whacked” perhaps I wouldn’t care and whose to say the tac even hit’s on D? and if you even wanted a third round attack on the remaining fighter?
Let me know your thoughts MrR.

MrRoboto · Jan 16, 2019, 7:49 PM

I’m not 100% sure on the rules, but in case the attacker needs to roll everything and not only the submarine first, then battles like these should only be done on the forum.

Should the defender need to select casualties from submarines first, I still think that “Max Defense” means tipping instead of losing something.

However, I don’t want to fight about losing half a fighter (50% chance of you hitting). This game was so dicey anyway (Asia…) that I don’t care about it enough to get in a fight with you. Let’s just roll your tac

:aaa 1@3:

If it hits, feel free to edit one fighter out from me.

MrRoboto · Jan 15, 2019, 1:33 PM

The command seems to have changed.

@djensen can you help out please?

Panther · Jan 15, 2019, 1:33 PM

@MrRoboto
The forum dicey has not yet been implemented. It is on @djensen 's todo list.
I recommend to use a single MARTI dice roll for resolving your issue.

MrRoboto · Jan 15, 2019, 1:39 PM

@Panther Thanks for helping out. Are you reading all game threads, or what???

@JWWII I just attacked something with a single tank to represent your defending tac and marti rolled a 5.

So nothing has changed.

Panther · Jan 15, 2019, 1:46 PM

@MrRoboto Not really, but there are some keywords sometimes striking me when taking a quick glance over the recent threads. So it’s more or less a coincidence. :smirk:

majikforce · Jan 15, 2019, 5:38 PM

Also, I believe triple a handles this incorrectly as all attacking dice should be rolled before casualties are selected, I think.

Not to butt in (although I guess I am by posting this) page 19 of the Europe rulebook under step 2 will clear up the rule issue. Suprise strike rolls and results are accounted for before the rest of the attacking dice are rolled. Triple A does do this correctly. And for what its worth I would agree with Mr Roboto’s interpretation of MAX D. (butting out now game on!)

djensen · Jan 15, 2019, 8:26 PM

@MrRoboto What @Panther said. :-)

666 · Jan 16, 2019, 7:49 PM

@MrRoboto I hear ya, I have received good dice in asia, I don’t consider this a fight at all, sorry if you feel that way. Perhaps i should have been clearer on my defensive wishes here. There seems to be enough times where I don’t do the math/calculations that hurt me and in this case I did, knew it would be close, and then for my plans to go awry because I wasn’t clear enough is my main driver here. But yes, with respect to the sub rule and selecting your loses I am quite confident that the rules don’t dictate that a decision on “loses” needs to be made before everything else. I could ask Gamerman etc…for clarification if you haven’t already. I haven’t read further in this thread, perhaps I should before commenting.

666 · Jan 16, 2019, 7:52 PM

@MrRoboto I didn’t notice, the roll, but I trust you, but to make things more abrasive the extra tac means, i think, that there needs to be another round of fighting as I believe you hit 4 and I had five units, tac & 4 fighter’s. there would have been a fighter left for another round.

666 · Jan 16, 2019, 7:54 PM

@majikforce said in 18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2:

Also, I believe triple a handles this incorrectly as all attacking dice should be rolled before casualties are selected, I think.

Not to butt in (although I guess I am by posting this) page 19 of the Europe rulebook under step 2 will clear up the rule issue. Suprise strike rolls and results are accounted for before the rest of the attacking dice are rolled. Triple A does do this correctly. And for what its worth I would agree with Mr Roboto’s interpretation of MAX D. (butting out now game on!)

hmmm, I will ask for clarification on the rule for my own sake, perhaps I have it all wrong. Lesson learned, provide OOL.

666 · Jan 16, 2019, 8:01 PM

@simon33, @gamerman01, @majikforce gent’s I hope this message finds you, I haven’t sent a PM since the new site came up…w/respect to naval battles, attacking SS’s fire, then defending SS’s fire and Triple A makes you select loses, then the remainder of the attacking fleet fires and so on. I thought that this process was handled incorrectly by TripleA, whereby the rules does not make a defender select casualties before the entire 1st round of attacks take place? Am I mistaken?

simon33 · Jan 16, 2019, 8:16 PM

Triple-A gets it wrong in a couple of cases:

where an SS attacks/defends with other units and the other side has a DD.
where a plane fires at an SS and the plane doesn’t have an accompanying DD.

Panther · Jan 16, 2019, 8:29 PM

@MrRoboto @JWWII

I am not acting as referee here, as this definitely is @Gamerman01 's part.
I just took a look at the SZ112 battle and realized your rules discussion regarding submarines here and how TripleA handles submarines.

Here is what I can add to this scenario from a rules and TripleA perspective:

At the start of the battle the German forces face the Allied forces including two Allied destroyers.
The Allied forces don’t face a German destroyer.
This is why the German submarine does not have a surprise strike in Combat Round 1, while the American submarine has it.

Now this is what TripleA should do:

It should roll only the American submarine in advance. In case the submarine had hit, a German unit would have had to be either damaged or immediately removed. Here the sub missed, however.

Then it should roll the “rest” of the battle including the attacking German submarine.

This is what TripleA actually does:

It does not roll only the American submarine in advance, but the German submarine, too, and forces the opponent to assign a hit. This is technically wrong and against the rules.

However TripleA considers the fact that the German submarine does not roll as a suprise strike. So casualties of this “illegal” in advance roll would not be removed immediately (though they disappear from the battle screen) but would - and actually do - fire back.

So the consequence of this in advance roll is similar to a roll of the submarine that occurred during the regular combat. The difference here is the timing of the casualty selection.

Players must be aware of this flaw when rolling sea battles.

majikforce · Jan 16, 2019, 8:46 PM

@Panther I can’t say I have ever encountered this on triple A. I probably just overlooked it. I will have to keep an eye on it going forward. Thanks Panther. As for the rules it is clearly stated on pg 19 that all casualties from a “Surpise Strike” are applied first before the rest of the battle is rolled.

Panther · Jan 16, 2019, 8:53 PM

@majikforce
Definitely yes. However, the German submarine does not have a surprise strike in the given scenario.

MrRoboto · Jan 17, 2019, 4:29 PM

Thanks everyone for pitching in! I really appreciate the fact that you guys are keeping attention and are helping out.

The situation we have is excatly how I assumed:

@MrRoboto said in 18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2:

I’m not 100% sure on the rules, but in case the attacker needs to roll everything and not only the submarine first, then battles like these should only be done on the forum.

Maybe I wasn’t very clear on this, so I’m going to explain (it’s basically exactly what @Panther said)

Should the attacker during a naval battle has submarines without surprise attacks, it’s probably be best to roll it on the forum. Because otherwise the defender would need to select casualties ahead of schedule.

This usually isn’t that big of a deal during bigger naval battles since the attacker usually has more ships accompanying the submarine. But it might make a big difference in battles like we just had.

@JWWII
Re-Reading my last post, I realize I might have come across a little bitter. Sorry for that, I’m not bitter. I have accepted the bad dice in this game and basically treated this one already as a loss, unless something crazy happens. That’s one reason why I’m not very invested in keeping one more unit or not. The other reason is that this community is very sportsmanlike and any kind of conflict with other players is not in my interest and I’d rather avoid it than having a very minor advantage in the game.

You’re absolutely right, however @JWWII . There’d be one more round in this fight, I have not considered that. I would need to score one additional hit with my 2 fighters and 3 tacs and you get one more chance to shoot back. I will simulate that battle right now! (You’ll get a Marti Dice Mail.)

I have scored exactly one hit (phew!) and you shot down one of my planes. As stated earlier: please feel free to remove one fighter with the edit function.

666 · Jan 17, 2019, 4:23 PM

@simon33 said in 18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2:

Triple-A gets it wrong in a couple of cases:

where an SS attacks/defends with other units and the other side has a DD.

where a plane fires at an SS and the plane doesn’t have an accompanying DD.

thanks, I thought there were some issues…I should remember these things but the details, the details…often escape me.

18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2

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