Global 1940 with 20 Powers

Caesar-Seriona

Sure but Vichy France is a dangerous nation to try to play because if you write it around historical, then you will need Paris and then southern France for the physical location of Vichy.

The way I want to do it is that Paris but be Axis controlled and who ever takes Southern France now controls Vichy France as an Axis nations (historical incorrect but it has to be this way for AnA) that is neutral played by whoever took control and all territories and units become Vichy unless they sit on or attached to allied units thus become Free French Forces.

Argothair

Very interesting ideas. How do you represent the 20 different national armies? Do you have 20 different colors of units? Pink and lavender and light blue and so on? Do you order Siamese rondels from HBG? Sounds like an expensive house rule, although potentially a very fun one.

One nitpick is that Bulgaria seems a bit overpowered relative to history / OOB Global '40. It’s only worth 1 IPC, but you’re giving it 4 infantry, 2 artillery, and a 3 IPC national objective for Russia. I think 3 Free French infantry in Equatorial Africa is probably also a little too strong – what do the Free French have to do? They can walk into empty Vichy French West Africa & Central Africa, and then I guess start walking toward Egypt.

A more important criticism is that I think you’re missing an opportunity to streamline your ruleset. Like, yes, it’s interesting to have 20 nations, but you don’t need 20 mix-and-match sets of political and military rules. I would like to see a division between minor powers, medium powers, and major powers.

Minor powers have no independent politics or economy whatsoever, and mobilize infantry/partisans in their home territories that must stay within those territories at all times. (Greece, Poland, Yugoslavia, Holland, Mongolia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Siam, South Africa)
Medium powers can only build infantry, artillery, fighters, destroyers, and transports. Medium powers have a capital and a factory and few or no travel restrictions, but they are politically linked to a major power and cannot declare war on their own account. (Vichy France, Free France, Canada, ANZAC, China, Finland, Romania)
Major powers have a capital, an economy, no restrictions, and can conduct their own independent politics. (Japan, USA, Germany, USSR, UK).

The exact details are less important than the principle of having a handful of easy-to-remember rules instead of having a unique ruleset for each nation.

I would not bother to split up the UK, because the UK doesn’t have that much left once you split off Canada, S. Africa/Rhodesia, and ANZAC. England + Scotland + Egypt + Jordan + Sudan + West India + East India + Malaya + Hong Kong is not too much for one major power. That’s probably still less than 30 IPCs.

I would split off South Africa and Canada from ANZAC, making them three separate powers. Feels weird to lump them all together. If you want to represent British solidarity or something like that you can say that you can move up to 5 IPCs per turn among any British powers by paying 1 IPC of shipping costs.

Charles de Gaulle

Your ideas have been implemented in the streamlined update.

It may be hard to see, but in entirety, these additions give the Allies a small boost.

Argothair

Oh, neat, that’s elegant with the WW1 pieces – as you say, the smaller nations will have fewer sculpts available. I might say that WW1 cruisers count as DDs, and WW1 battleships count as CAs – seems weird to allow a nation to build battleships but not destroyers.

And, sir, I would never underestimate Free France – if you read some of my other posts in the House Rules section, you’ll see that I’m a vigorous advocate for a larger, more powerful France. I want France moved higher up in the turn order, given more starting units, given a secondary capital, etc. My only concern is that with 3 Free French in FEA and 0 Vichy French in FWA or FCA, the Free French will have a difficult time actually engaging in combat. I’d love to see, e.g., the Battle of Dakar get spontaneously re-enacted as a result of the initial setup. But that’s a minor point.

Charles de Gaulle

The standard setup shows one French infantry in French West Africa. The rules have been updated to clarify that this is a Vichy troop.

Charles de Gaulle

This ruleset can be easily used for standalone Europe and Pacific 1940. Implementations of these rules for Larry’s 1942 setup as well as others such as Oztea’s immaculate 1941 and even my 1939 are being tested.

General 6 Stars

@Charles:

This ruleset can be easily used for standalone Europe and Pacific 1940. Implementations of these rules for Larry’s 1942 setup as well as others such as Oztea’s immaculate 1941 and even my 1939 are being tested.

Wait a minute. If you have a setup is for HBG 39 map I like to see your French setup. I too dont agree with die rolling for pieces and etc… In this game it could affect UK or Germany plus the MED to much.

Charles de Gaulle

I was referring to a 1939 setup variant I made for 1940. I never played or intend to play HBG 1939. It is too complicated in the wrong way. I am also disgusted with its treatment of France and Holland. And what happened to Belgium? Lol.

General 6 Stars

@Charles:

I was referring to a 1939 setup variant I made for 1940. I never played or intend to play HBG 1939. It is too complicated in the wrong way. I am also disgusted with its treatment of France and Holland. And what happened to Belgium? Lol.

True :x

Charles de Gaulle

If you want to have the full experience, also use this neutral expansion ruleset along with the new powers:

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=38615.msg%msg_id%

All playtests of this addition of 11 powers used these new neutral rules, and I definitely recommend you play these two house rules together. It allows for fun things like South Africa invading Portuguese colonies, Bulgaria and Italy invading Turkey etc.

We are currently working on implementing the 20-power ruleset for other Global setups. If you would like to play this add-on in a Pacific/Europe solo game, I can post the theater rulesets on request.

bgugs

This looks like a variant I was working on. Until I decided to design a whole new map for it. Mine is still in the works but similar

Chris_Henry

Great ideas! I love the idea of small nations getting to play. It’ll make the games longer, of course, but I think it adds a bit of intrigue to everything.

I have one issue though, that I think may unbalance your game way too much in favor of the Axis. For all the Minor Axis powers: Hungary, Finland, Bulgaria, Romania, you add a decent chunk of units and, more importantly, industrial complexes, WITHOUT really giving much to the USSR to counter this.

What I mean by this is, my adding troops and complexes much closer to the Soviet borders, you’re allowing a quicker flow of reinforcements to the eastern front, making the Soviet position harder to maintain. Without balancing by adding something to the USSR, I fear it may be too overpowering.

I understand that you’ve added units, etc. to the Western Powers though in the form of South Africa, Canada, Poland, Belgium, etc., but it won’t help the USSR all that much until potentially too late. The rate it would take to get say an infantry and artillery to the front lines from Canada, for example, is much smaller than the rate the Axis minors can pump that out in the east. For Canada, you have to not only build the units, but also the transport to carry them, and then at least two turns to get to the front. For most Axis minors, they would be on the front the moment they are built.

I’m not necessarily saying this definitively unbalances your concept, but more asking if that’s something you considered?

Also, if you’re going to add all the little guys, I think you have to add Norway in some way as well. The Norwegian merchant fleet was one of the biggest in the world, and was huge in helping the Allied war effort. :-)

Charles de Gaulle

You raise great points. Though I won’t pretend this is a perfect setup, I will share the designer’s and playtesters’ thoughts.

Finland has its drawbacks. It is susceptible to Soviet takeover and can act as a free minor industrial complex for any Allied powers venturing in the Scandinavian. Aside from Karelia and Vyborg, Finland has little to do aside from reinforcing Germany. Also, Finland becomes quite useless late game because IMPORTANT any victory ciities under Finnish control are not counted in the Axis objective of eight. Therefore, taking Leningrad is not a good idea at all for Finland. Unless the Western Allies attack Finland, Finland is only useful versus Russia.

Bulgaria is not intended to be used against Russia. Doing so will cause Bulgaria to lose its NO’s. Unless it is actively taking Yugoslavia (a partisan spawns there every turn), Bulgaria will only have 1 IPCs a turn to use. Even with Yugoslavia, Bulgaria can only pump out one infantry a turn which would much preferably be German. A drawback with all the minor Axis is that they cannot attack with Germany and are thus only useful for canopeners, minor battles, and reinforcing.

Romania and Hungary are indeed great assets to Germany (as they really were). They can easily do all the canopeners Italy used to. They also make decent enough income and face a weak enough front to be able to do serious fighting with Russia. A recent game saw Romania taking all of the Ukraine and some other Russian territories. The Romanians pumped out 3 units a turn from Ukraine and opened up the south and even made a suicide attack on Moscow so war torn Germans could move in. Hungary and Romania do indeed get to build troops right up front, but their inability to coordinate assaults with Germany is a drawback.

In short, Hungary and Romania are a pain to Russia, Bulgaria is best used elsewhere, and Finalnd is more of an independent nuisance to both parties. I do personally feel that this mod might hurt Russia, but the benefits elsewhere make up for it. Also, it is much more fun to fight on the Eastern Front with so many powers. The lack of huge stacks of Germans allows Russia more counterattack potential and less headache around Leningrad and Moscow, but the power of quick mobilization and blitzkrieg with canopeners cam be a deadly tool.

The Russian player will usually get a much more interesting game with plenty of fighting, but their rate of fall might increase.

Bulgaria is an issue, I will admit. I might just say that Bulgaria can never fight Russia unless first attacked.

Chris_Henry

Interesting Charles de Gaulle. I’d actually forgotten/not considered in my head that the Axis minors would move and attack separate from Germany. That does add differences, though in two directions I feel.

You’re absolutely right, that they will perform a great can-opening role in that regard. Arguably lets Italy more or less focus solely in the Med.
The downside here is that you’re taking IPC’s away from Germany. Again, I won’t sit here and say it unbalances a game that I haven’t tried, but just curious. Bulgaria is a good example. What if that 1 IPC a turn affects Germany from building one more tank, one more bomber, one more sub, etc. It’ll take 3 turns of Bulgaria to get one infantry built, when in those same three turns Germany (potentially) loses out on something stronger than an infantry. Again, just playing devils advocate.

I hadn’t realized your intentions with Finland either. Very interesting game mechanic there, to have them both help and hinder the Germans in that regard.

Again, the biggest question mark for me is the added minor complexes added. Those, now free, complexes will be massive targets for either side. You’re right about Finland too, take minor would be a huge prize for the USA maybe to nab for free and build troops from.

Definitely curious on others’ thoughts as well.

Charles de Gaulle

If you are interested, give it a try, possibly tweaking anything that annoys you. The NOs are important but can be easily adjusted to suit your tastes. This variant is great fun to play with nine players. Nine? Yes.
Axis:
Germany
Japan
Italy, Vichy
Romania, Hungary, Finland, Bulgaria, Siam
Allies:
Soviet Union
United States
Commonwealth of Nations
United Kingdom, Poland, Greece
China, Free France, Mongolia, Holland/Belgium
(This is only an example)

This makes for a very fun team game. Note the increase in forces and IPCs that enables more people to have action, and unfortunately lengthens the monster game.

Norway would probably be the only power I would add, but aside from ships (which would be awkward for the setup), action upon liberation, and maybe a partisan rule, Norway has a hard time doing anything at this point.

Also, I should reiterate that most of the new powers have limited buying power as indicated in the setup. This means that Hungary is not going to be pumping out mechanized infantry with its 3 IPCs and one bonus buck. It is something else to consider in the question of balance in the Eastern Front.

AxisAndAllies1940

I am in the middle of playing this game as Germany and the Axis Minors, and I have found that the Axis have a major advantage, since the Finns can declare war turn 1, tie up Soviet troops for a turn, on turn 2, Hungary and Romania can declare war, take East Poland and Bessarabia, then turn 3, the Germans (who have built up tanks in Poland, Hungary, and Romania), can sweep through and take Belarus, W Ukraine, and Ukraine. Then, the Axis Minors can can-open Bryansk and Smolensk. Moscow falling before turn 5 seems quite possible.

As for Canada, a few subs can hold them back for a few turns. Turn 1: kill Canadian navy, turn 2, Canada builds a new navy, turn 3, Canada kills your subs. It’s quite possible for Canada to just sap 7 IPCs a turn from UK London’s money for 4 turns, without much of a return.

This also allows Italy to focus exclusively on Egypt, as Germany can use its Paris veterans to kill Yugoslavia en route to Russia t2. Bulgaria can’t defeat Greece by itself, but it can weaken it enough that either Germany or Italy can kill Greece without much fuss (together with Southern France, that’s 2/3 of the Roman Empire objective). So Italy doesn’t urgently need to provide a can-opener in Russia, doesn’t have to worry about French North Africa (at least not at first), and has Balkan allies (plus aid from Germany if need be), to knock out Yugoslavia and Greece.

I think that a few things that could help here are: giving Russia more units in the north (to counter Finland), giving Russia more units in the centre (Kazakhstan, Samara, Novosibirsk), that can fight the new Axis Minors, making South Africa or Free France stronger (to help fight Italy), and giving Canada more of a navy.

All in all, this is still a great setup! 8.5 stars out of 10.

Charles de Gaulle

Interesting points. But here are some things to consider:

First of all, how are you killing the Canadian navy? Three Germans subs can reach SZ106. In defense there is a destroyer, a Dutch cruiser (Princess Juliana), and a tactical bomber scrambling from the air base on Nova Scotia. Did you notice all three of these defenders in the setups?

Although London will have trouble defending itself, the additions of Canada and South Africa actually serve to be bad for Italy Even if the UK is worried about London, South Africa is still going to be pumping out units to protect Egypt. Also, if London did fall, it’a not a big deal to Egypt because the Empire is still building. With both NOs, South Africa can be sending three mechs a turn up to Congo and Egypt. Combined with Free France, this setup actually can hurt Italy. The bonuses are French North Africa and the Balkans as you mentioned.

The Eastern Front needs a total reworking of tactics. A well-prepared line of defense from Ukraine to Leningrad must keep in mind that German tanks and mechs might come rolling through after a Hungarian invasion or whatnot. You must plan ahead and remember that killing minor Axis powers does nothing to help Moscow from falling. Focus on the Germans and make their loss of IPCs to the other governments hurtful. Be creative too. Taking out Finland, Romania, etc. now awards Russia an IPC stash and an industrial complex. If the Germans are going all against you, don’t let the minor Axis intimidate you or fool you into petty fights that aren’t going to stop Germany. Don’t take minor Axis threats more seriously than their little numbers and be prepared for any can-opener possible.

If Hungary and Romania take Eastern Poland etc. as you mentioned, I would hope that Russia saw it coming and therefore prepared by not spreading all over even the second line of defense. Should any German attack of fast movers get through, Russia must focus on the Germans, not the minor Axis who do not have the backing to take key areas.

Instead of adding new Russian units, I would rather eliminate some Finnish and perhaps others.

Charles de Gaulle

A comment on my last post:

Actually four German submarines can reach Sea Zone 106 to fight the Canadian destroyer and scrambling t bomber and Dutch cruiser. Althought the Germans could send all these submarines to ensure Canada is useless for the first two turns, this diversion will have serious effects elsewhere (very likely saving some British ships).

Getting back to the Eastern Front, I consulted with others about your worries of a Russian disadvantage, but the only change I was able to implement was the removal of the tank in Finland. At least the Finns won’t be blitzing Karelia and Vyborg anymore.

Charles de Gaulle

Bulgaria was nerfed.

Now, Bulgaria may never declare war on the Soviet Union unless attacked by the Russians, and Bulgaria will not collect NOs. Also, the industrial complex on Bulgaria was removed since the territory is only worth one. Just like Free France and Yuguslavia, Bulgaria may build units on its original territory without needing a factory.

Canada was given a bonus one IPC on hand at the start of the game (8/7) to allow a destroyer purchase.

I managed to get some more of your ideas implemented A&A1940:
Romania and Finland’s NO’s were reduced.
The factories on Hungary and Romania were demoted to minors to encourage bombing.
Canada no longer needs Gibraltar for its NOs.

Here is a FAQ about strange French scenarios that aren’t uncommon in this house rule setup:
Q. What happens if Germany takes Southern France (Vichy) turn one?
A. Vichy will continue to collect from its territories, but it will never get the chance to build. Since all that stored up cash will eventually reach Free French hands, this is a bad move on Germany’s part.

Q. What happens if Free French troops in Normandy take Southern France (Vichy) turn one?
A. This is interesting. Basically a civil war has broken out. It will be opn to the Axis to “liberate” Southern France from the FFF so Vichy can have a factory to spend its IPCs on. The “liberating” Axis forces will be obliged to remove themselves on the following turn.

Q. Is Southern France a capital for Vichy?
A. No. In all cases where Southern France is seized by the Allies, Vichy will retain its money. Only when one of the three requirements (stated in the ruleset) for making Vichy join the Free French is met at the end of Free France’s turn, then will Vichy’s IPCs be sacked (by Free France).

Charles de Gaulle

I noticed a problem: as the game goes on, the Commonwealth starts to have quite a few more troops at the front that Britain and even exceeds the UK’S income sometimes. To remedy this exaggeration, 8 IPCs in NOs have been removed from Canada and South Africa and given to UK Europe.
EDIT: The minor industrial complex on Ontario was restored.

Global 1940 with 20 Powers

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