Global War 1940 2nd ed.

@barnee said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

@SS-GEN

This is an added level of complexity and probably not worth it, but instead of all plane hits resulting in a kill, I mean planes that get hit, maybe one or some could just neutralize. Doesn’t kill the plane but the plane can’t take place in the combat.

Just a thought : )

That’s kinda in the game when a Carrier is damaged and you can only launch or land 1 plane in combat or non combat.
Another way as your saying is a plane is damaged and can’t fight. But mostly when a fig is hit it’s going down.

I don’t think it would be to complex. It’s like anytime you roll for a CR and/or BB you just use 2 colored dice and just say this color dice is for plane hits.
I really like this idea of 2 dice. If need be just lower dice numbers for AD.
It may still not work but then maybe have to lower C of planes. That is another test option I will look at too.
I did play test just CR at AD4 and can take a hit towards a plane every round of combat. Now that was cool because as we discussed in another thread topic it makes you really think about your planes and plus all planes can retreat after 1 round of combat.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Looking at this some more the Cruiser will be a pretty strong ship due to being able to take 2 hits on a plane and a ship. Its like a 2 hit ship for damage now. The BB can get 4 hits before its sunk. Did you consider those numbers ?
Is there a way to config in the extra hits before ships are sunk.
CR C10 A4 .48 pl A3 .36 ship = .84 but have to consider it can hit 2 pieces. 1.68 ?
BB C15 A4 .56 pl A5 .70 ship = 1.26 1 Dam A3 .42 pl A4 .56 ship = .98 2 hits 2.24 ?
My BB goes to A6D6 when damaged.
But also the BB can hit 4 pieces before its sunk. These 2 ships will be way to strong on first round of combat maybe and at least in my game you can retreat your planes after 1 round of combat if there’s a lot of plane kills. Would not be uncommon to lose 4 planes after 1 round of combat. 2 in a DF and 2 in naval battle if there’s 1 BB and CR. I guess will have to see. I will have to do some Naval test battles.
How these look if we figure out a new numbers table for 2 AD dice ships ?
CR A3 pl A3 ship
BB A4 pl A4 ship Damaged A3 pl A3 ship

Maybe with the CR A4 A4 BB A4 A5 may not work with plane C10 ?
I can see planes Costing 8 or 9. At least Naval Figs and Dive Bombers.

Still will try it games. Just got to come up with a value that we are all OK with for starters.

The reaction about “overkill” is natural.
But the statistics might show that is less scary than first thought.

On Cruiser Cost 10, @4 vs aircraft, @3 vs ship or else, here are the numbers:
1 aircraft and 1 other hit, 2 casualty: odds are: 1/12
1 regular hit only, odds are 2/12
1 aircraft and nothing else, odds are 3/12
No casualty at all: 6/12

Compared to Cruiser Cost 10, @7, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12
No casualty at all: 5/12

So, playing with 2 dice split in two values, there is more odds of no casualty, 50%.
But, there is a small chance, 1 out 12, 8.33% to get 2 hits.

Splitting dice into 1 vs Aircraft and 1 vs other, is not a doubling of odds at all.

If only considering a single combat round, there is no big difference about damage.
Let’s suppose that such Cruiser will hit a 10 IPCs unit or a 6 IPCs unit.
Hence, Cruiser Cost 10, @7, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 10 IPCs = 5.83 IPCs
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 6 IPCs = 3.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 5/12 * 10 IPCs = 0.00
Average: 4.665 IPCs

Let’s suppose that such Cruiser will hit a 10 IPCs unit, and a 6 IPCs Destroyer.
On Cruiser Cost 10, @4 vs aircraft, @3 vs ship or else, here are the numbers:
1 aircraft and 1 other hit (Destroyer), 2 casualty: odds are: 1/12 *16 IPCs = 1.33 IPCs
1 regular hit only (Destroyer), odds are 2/12 * 6 IPCs = 1 IPC
1 aircraft and nothing else, odds are 3/12 * 10 IPCs = 2.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 6/12 * 0 IPC = 0.00
SUM: 4.83 IPCs

Your previous Cruiser was only @4 vs aircraft.
Cruiser Cost 10, @4, odds:
1 aircraft only, odds are 4/12 * 10 IPCs = 3.33 IPCs

If you go the reverse values for Cruiser,
like Cost 10, @3 vs aircraft, @4 vs ship or else, here are the numbers:
1 aircraft and 1 other hit (Destroyer), 2 casualty: odds are: 1/12 *16 IPCs = 1.33 IPCs
1 regular hit only (Destroyer), odds are 3/12 * 6 IPCs = 1.50 IPC
1 aircraft and nothing else, odds are 2/12 * 10 IPCs = 1.67 IPCs
No casualty at all: 6/12 * 0 IPC = 0.00
SUM: 4.50 IPCs

In that regard, you will be below the average of a regular Cruiser facing from 6 to 10 IPCs units:
Hence, Cruiser Cost 10, @7, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 10 IPCs = 5.83 IPCs
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 6 IPCs = 3.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 5/12 * 10 IPCs = 0.00
Average: 4.665 IPCs

HTH make up your mind about these special rolls.

According to my taste, I would like to consider that last “@3” as the usual AA roll in all circumstances, except for a Fighter on defense keeping the high “4” against aircraft.

That way, you can also us this “@3” for Battleship and damaged Battleship.
Battleship, Cost 15, @3 vs aircraft, @6 vs ships or else.
Damaged BB, @3 vs aircraft, @3 vs ships or else.

For your info.
To explain where I got all odds for 4 cases: 1/12, 2/12, 3/12, 6/12.
@3/12 vs aircraft, @4/12 vs other unit
2 hits: @3 * @4 = 12 out 144 or 1/12
1 aircraft hit: @3 vs @8 = 24 out of 144 or 2/12
1 regular hit: @9 vs @4 = 36 out of 144 or 3/12
0 hit: @9 vs @8 = 72 out of 144 or 6/12

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Guys are concerned about over kill to.

In addition, if you decide that this AA roll @3 only work if there is an enemy aircraft available, you are radically diminishing Cruiser and Battleship combat values.

When I first suggested the above split dice, I was still considering that, in absence of aircraft, Cruiser and BB can still roll their AA combat value, but casualty apply to warships, DD, Subs, Cruiser, etc.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Looking at this some more the Cruiser will be a pretty strong ship due to being able to take 2 hits on a plane and a ship. Its like a 2 hit ship for damage now. The BB can get 4 hits before its sunk. Did you consider those numbers ?
How these look if we figure out a new numbers table for 2 AD dice ships ?
CR A3 pl A3 ship
BB A4 pl A4 ship Damaged A3 pl A3 ship

Maybe with the CR A4 A4 BB A4 A5 may not work with plane C10 ?
I can see planes Costing 8 or 9. At least Naval Figs and Dive Bombers.

Still will try it games. Just got to come up with a value that we are all OK with for starters.

For your info.
To get different odds for 4 cases:
Cruiser @3/12 vs aircraft, @3/12 vs other unit
2 hits: @3 * @3 = 9 out 144 or 0.75/12 or 6.25% * 16 IPCs = 1 IPC
1 aircraft hit: @3 vs @9 = 27 out of 144 or 2.25/12 or 18.75% * 10 IPC = 1.875 IPCs
1 regular hit: @9 vs @3 = 27 out of 144 or 2.25/12 or 18.75% * 6 IPC = 1.125 IPCs
0 hit: @9 vs @9 = 81 out of 144 or 6.75/12 or 56.25%
SUM: 4.00 IPCs

Compared to Cruiser Cost 10, @7, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 10 IPCs = 5.83 IPCs
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 6 IPCs = 3.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 5/12 * 10 IPCs = 0.00
Average: 4.665 IPCs

Battleship @3/12 vs aircraft, @5/12 vs other unit
2 hits: @3 * @5 = 15 out 144 or 1.25/12 or 10.42% * 16 IPCs = 1.667 IPC
1 aircraft hit: @3 vs @7 = 21 out of 144 or 1.75/12 or 14.58% * 10 IPC = 1.458 IPCs
1 regular hit: @9 vs @5 = 45 out of 144 or 3.75/12 or 31.25% * 6 IPC = 1.875 IPCs
0 hit: @9 vs @7 = 63 out of 144 or 5.25/12 or 43.75%
SUM: 5.00 IPCs

Compared to Battleship Cost 15, @9, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 9/12 * 10 IPCs = 7.50 IPCs
1 regular hit only, odds are 9/12 * 6 IPCs = 4.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 3/12 * 10 IPCs = 0.00
Average: 6.00 IPCs

Thanks a ton Baron for the numbers. Yes I’m aware odds don’t double.
CR A7 = 7/12 or 58%
CR A3 plane A4 ship = A3/12 25% A4/12 33% =
58%
Main number looking for was the 2 hit odds which you said like 8.8%
So not to get guys confused will stick with aa@3
CR C10 A3 plane A4 ship
BB C15 A3 plane A6 ship
BB dam A3 plane A3 ship
Now the question is if there’s no planes in a battle CR only gets 1 A4 for ship ?
BB only gets 1 A6 for ship ?

I can’t see the CR and BB getting a die hit for plane and getting 2 hits on a ship. AA pointing at sky.
Plus the two ships get an extra 8.8% odds on 2 hits plus any dice gods being mean so that ain’t bad difference drop to just getting hits on ships at A4 and A6 with no planes in battle.

@SS-GEN

Keeping a low @3 vs aircraft, allows to keep an higher regular combat value for the big guns of Cruisers and Battleships. It is playable.
However, this might imply sometimes, the reverse.
If only attacking are aircraft, can you defend your Cruiser or Battleships with other big guns rolls.
IMO, in that case, I would use both dice against aircraft only.

So AA roll is true AA gun but warships gun turrets can still blasts into the air.

Ok. Only planes attacking both ships get to roll 2 dice.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Ok. Only planes attacking both ships get to roll 2 dice.

But, what is the defense values of Carriers?
If only having AA rolls, and zero dice vs ships?

Maybe to keep a similar @3, you might need to lower down a bit the Carrier cost, to 12 IPCs?

Or are you going to make the special “4” defense for both Fighter and Carrier on defense?

Ok. Wait a min. Are these CR BB two dice rolls against my planes being lowered in cost and A and D. Because my figs don’t defend at 4 it’s 7

Or are you saying figs D4 in Dog fights ?

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Or are you saying figs D4 in Dog fights ?

Until you make your mind about all of these changes, this is enough that Fighter dogfight work D@4.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Ok. Wait a min. Are these CR BB two dice rolls against my planes being lowered in cost and A and D. Because my figs don’t defend at 4 it’s 7

I worked under the assumption that basic Naval Fighter were at Cost 10, and other values according to this, not lowered cost adjustment for aircraft.

Ok. Then just one last thing
What are you referring too with figsD@4 ?

A naval fig D@4 only in a Dog Fight ?

OK keep in mind only some nations modified their cruisers as AA gun platforms. USA and to a lessor extent Japan utilized this capability. The elite ships of the German Navy also had this. Otherwise, the Cruiser was a protector for Carriers or long range “hunter”

If your keeping D6, im not in favor of multiple dice. D12 is a much better system for this.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Ok. Then just one last thing
What are you referring too with figsD@4 ?

A naval fig D@4 only in a Dog Fight ?

I know that Carriers were only firing at aircraft, since it is A2 D4, I was wondering if you are going to keep every AA roll @3 to keep things simple. Or make Carrier special in that regard with a little higher and lower values.

@Imperious-Leader said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

OK keep in mind only some nations modified their cruisers as AA gun platforms. USA and to a lessor extent Japan utilized this capability. The elite ships of the German Navy also had this. Otherwise, the Cruiser was a protector for Carriers or long range “hunter”

If your keeping D6, im not in favor of multiple dice. D12 is a much better system for this.

No, we are just talking about D12, nothing else. I agree D12 is a much better system when there is many details into the roster and game mechanics.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Ok. Then just one last thing
What are you referring too with figsD@4 ?

A naval fig D@4 only in a Dog Fight ?

When I was talking about D@4, it can be understood both ways. Either with your actual Naval Fighter or the yet to implement Fighter with lower cost.

BB and Cruiser with split dice can work for both situations.

@SS-GEN
yea my thinking was if you were concerned with excessive air casualties in the air battle phase you could do something such as, Hit= Die, Miss= Live go onto regular battle and Neutral/No Decision w/e you wanna call it, = doesn’t take place in regular battle but doesn’t Die.

This is represented in regular battle when units miss, but if too many planes either survive or Die in air battle, this would allow another mechanism to regulate the combat.

It could be looked at as a no decision with planes running out of fuel and returning to base after dogfighting or battle damage sustained requiring the same. Not all planes that sustained battle damage were destroyed and not all that did were prevented from completing their mission and engaging in their main, in this case, regular combat either.

Anyway, it may be too tactical for a strategic level game, but thought it could provide an option if air battle casualties were to impactful. So Hit = Die, Miss= Continue, No Result = RTB or Return to Base.

I do follow along here but not 100%, baron can be a little wordy at times : ), so maybe this is already allowed for.

I would love to someday dial your game in for triplea.

Rock On Guys :)

Here’s what I’m going with in next 2 games in 1 weekend.
BB C15 A@3 plane A@6 ship M2 A@3 plane A@3 ship 1 damage
CR C10 A@3 plane A@4 ship M3
CV C14 A@0 D@4 plane M2 A@2 plane 1 damage
CVE C8 A@0 D@2 plane M2
DD C6 A@3 D@3 M2
SS C7 A@5 D@2 M2
TR C7 A@1 D@1 M2 can only take as casualty with planes in battles.
If you take as a casualty you do not get your AD@1shot at a plane.
Fig C10 A@6 D@7 M5 DF A@3 D@3
Tac C10 A@7 D@5 M5 DF@1 Roll a 3 or less can pick target with return shot
N Fig C10 A@5 D@7 M4 DF A@3 D@4
D. Bomb C10 A@7 D@5 M4 DF@1 Roll a 3 or less can pick target with return shot.
Stg. B C10 4 A@3 1 round only. D@2 M6 DF@1 cannot hit Naval ships.
Remember also there is 1 round of Dog fight and Combat. Then all attacking and defending planes can retreat.
Only naval planes can land on Carriers.

For now the changes were to the BB, CR, N. Fig Defense and Cost for N Fig, D bomb
was 11 down to 10.
Baron feel free if you think there needs to be a tweak to a piece here.
You mentioned bringing Carrier C12.
Would be nice if at least the Naval planes went to C9. Even Fig and Tac without changing AD values for planes. If you get Industrial Tech in game certain pieces are -1 in cost. Still got time here to tweak and do some small test battles and a turn 1 test on my map for game in Europe for Germany and UK.
As far as what IL said he basically is saying UK and Italy doesn’t get the AA shots ?

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

CV C14 A@0 D@4 plane M2 A@2 plane 1 damage
CVE C8 A@0 D@2 plane M2
CR C10 A@3 plane A@4 ship M3
DD C6 A@3 D@3 M2
SS C7 A@5 D@2 M2

Thanks SS for providing all these values about your full roster.

Everything seems correct and interesting.
Maybe, Cruiser @4 vs ship may seems too low in comparison to Submarine @5.
Can you rise C10 Cruiser to @5 for regular combat?

My other tweak would be to simplify to the @3 AA basic values as main reference.
So here is my suggestion:
CV C14 A@0 D@4 plane M2 A@3 plane 1 damage
CVE C8 A@0 D@3 plane M2

That way, except for the better @4 AA platform such as a Fleet Carrier or a Naval Fighter, all AA rolls will be “3”.

IMO, it will help to maximize the pace and get use to the special AA roll with Cruiser and Battleship, so everyone will get use to this @3 value.

For now, about C14 Carrier, I’m kind have a mixed feeling about it because with a high C10 aircraft, it is a bless to be able to shot them down @4 so, why lower to C12?
If you ever lower the Naval Fg and DiveBomber around C7, then it may be needed to lower Carrier to C12. Otherwise, I would test at C14 for now.