The worst National Objective: and one quick way to fix game balance. *HR

Thanks YG and definite thanks to Herr KaLeun and everyone else providing input on this and providing the substance. Something about three routes just feels right doesn’t it?

I truly believe this will provide an entertaining solution on game balance without totally busting the opening. It wouldn’t immediately affect the Sea Lion potential or the game in the Med on Italy/Cairo, or India or the Pacific, but eventually it could affect all these areas via the leg up for the Soviets that Allies would receive. It’s also convenient, in that, if the 3 supply NOs and the Soviet Sphere of Influence aren’t enough, we can always add the War in Europe NO for an extra +5. I’m optimistic.

I think they would look slick on a card, in a comprehensive NO expansion deck too. For players that dig cards. Which I definitely do  :-D

Definitely! Done :)

I edited the lead post so its easier to reference. Any other thoughts on how to improve these?
I think the names are feeling pretty solid now. Good call.

Yeah, I was thinking we could reserve The Great Patriotic War as optional here, only if it proves necessary after trying the others on balance. For people who just want a quick G40 fix, without the additional two Supply NOs, they could use the At War bonus as an alternative. But with the 3 supplies routes it play, Russia may have enough that you don’t need to award the extra 5 for it. In this case it is just a condition that precedes the others.

I’m pretty open to using Amur over Soviet Far East, if it works better on balance. I was playing solitaires last night to see how each one worked. I think Japan should be able to shut down The Northern Trace without too much cost, sz 1, forcing USA to trade destroyers, and Alaska are also options, as well as contesting the route in Russia directly. But at least this gives Japan something to else to consider.

for Amur I think you will see a Japanese DoW against Russia more often, but either territory Amur or Soviet Far East, both have strategic interest. I’d like to playtest both to see which one offers the most for the Pacific gameplay.

So given all that, perhaps a reading more like this, for the current draft… we can make Soviet Sphere of Influence the “theme” of the Great Patriotic War NO. And leave the +5 for being at war in europe as strictly optional.

National Objectives: Soviet Union

*If the Soviet Union is at war with at least one European Axis power, then…

“The Great Patriotic War” Theme: Soviet Sphere of Influence.
+5 ipcs if there are no units belonging to other Allied powers present in any territories originally controlled by the Soviet Union.

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“Arctic Convoys” Theme: access to Allied Lend-Lease material, support to Russia via the Arctic supply route (Archangel and Murmansk).
+5 ipcs if Allies control Archangel and Karelia, and sz 125 is free of Axis warships.

“Persian Corridor” Theme: support to Russia via the Trans-Iranian supply route.
+5 ipcs if Allies control Persia and Northwest Persia, and sz 80 is free of Axis warships.

“The Northern Trace” Theme: support to Russia via the Northwest Staging route, and Alaska-Siberia Air Road.
+5 ipcs if Allies control Amur and Alaska, and sz 1 is free of Axis warships.

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“Red Advance” Theme: Propaganda value and spread of communism.
+3 IPCs for each original German, Italian, or pro-Axis neutral territory that the Soviet Union controls.

“Final Offensive” Theme: National Prestige.
+10 ipcs (one time only) the first time the Soviet Union controls Germany (Berlin).

• Optional +5 ipcs suggested for the separate condition “At war in Europe” when playing without the added supply routes. Suggested +5 if at War in Europe and “not at War with Japan” (NAP). These only if game balance recommends them, or as a bonus against opponents of varying skill. Otherwise “At War in Europe”, serves as a necessary condition which must be met to activate all Soviet NOs, but which awards no ipcs itself.

What does everyone else think, Amur or Soviet Far East?

@Herr:

I wasn’t aware of ALSIB, thanks for the historical note. Though on a broader scale, I’d say that Vladivostok would be possible as well, as it was part of the general Pacific Route.

The Pacific Route does seem to offer a much different flavor than the Northern Trace, but it also seems like something that would only be possible if Russia and Japan are not at war.

I wonder if this might be simplified? As a stand alone NO I would write is like this…

“Pacific Route” Theme: Non Agression Pact with Japan, access to Allied Lend-Lease material, support to Russia via convoys from North America and the Pacific.
+5 ipcs, if the Soviet Union is not at war with Japan.

This would give the Russians an incentive not to DoW Japan. Considering that if Russia and Japan are not war, then this NO would probably have been out historically, or would have to change to something much more complex, like control of Amur, and no axis warships in sz 6. But I think this NO might be interesting as just a simplified way to get Russia +5 ipcs during the initial rounds when they are not at war with Japan. Just like the other NOs, being at War in Europe should be a requirement to activate this aid.

Japan would then be under pressure to shut down the Pacific Route +5 with a DoW, but only at the risk of activating the Northern Trace NO. Under these conditions we could attach Amur to the Northern Trace rather than Soviet Far East, so that if Japan does go to war they are more likely to face Mongolian entry.

Also how do you guys feel about the inclusion of Karelia to the Arctic Convoy NO? I think it would make sense, so that this NO matches the formula of the others: 2 land, 1 convoy each, but again I’m pretty open here. I think the most important thing is just making sure that the Soviet Union actually receives enough NO cash once at war to fight, because otherwise its just a lot of text without much meaningful purpose to the gameplay, same as the OOB stuff we’re trying to fix. I think the way reads above, we’re much closer to a bid free game, which should be the goal.

Right now Persian Corridor will give +5 for at least a few rounds after Germany DoWs, after that its harder to say, since it is certainly possible for Axis to put the squeeze on Persia or sz80. Soviet Sphere of Influence will award +5, at least for as long as Russia can justify keeping Allies out of their land, but eventually that one will be unsustainable too.

Arctic Convoys, and the Northern Trace are going to be harder for Allies to achieve, and its likely that Russia will not receive any money for these, beyond maybe a round or two. But they will both provide distractions for the Axis, so they do have an influence on the gameplay.

The question is, will all that be enough on balance by sides? It seems most of you feel that it would. But if not,  then I suggest +5 to the Soviets for the “at war” condition in europe,  +5 for the “not at war” condition in the Pacific. Either of which could be optional. If we need them.

These two “War condition NOs” could also serve as an alternative to the supply routes, combined with just The Great Patriotic War NO, and the OOB NOs. In which case the most basic three for Russia would be.
+5 if at War in Europe, then…
+5 if no western units on originally red territory, The Great Patriotic War: theme Soviet Sphere of Influence.
+5 if not at War with Japan.

This last formula would work for people who are less interested in the Supply routes with expanded NOs, but something very simple to track. I think either would probably work.

@Herr:

That’s a lot more than the average Allied bid!

Recall that pre-placement Bid units are inherently more valuable than units which enter the game in later rounds through the normal purchasing mechanics. Comparing them at a 1:1 doesn’t take into account the strategic advantage of extra units on the board at the outset. Even going back to Classic, whenever the Bid was restricted to normal income, the ipc amount was always higher than the amount you’d award in pre-placement units, because the ability to break a battles can yield more on the TUV trade in the first round when you bid pre-placement. Also, I think +15 ipcs in Supply is being a bit optimistic for the Allies’ chances. sz 125 is fairly simple to cover with G, so that knocks 5 ipcs right there. Persia seems likely, but again sz80 isn’t all that far away from Japan. Amur is doable for Axis as well, if at a cost of some annoyance in China. So all the supply routes could be contested. That just leaves the +5 ipc for no western units on red land, which is a nice aspiration for the Soviets, but it can be hard to maintain once under pressure. If that one goes, or is traded out to hold on of the supplies, then Russia is still down in the +5 ipcs per round range or potentially down to zero in NOs.

If it balances just with the supply and the Great Patriotic War, then that’s great, but if those NOs are not enough, then we have the “At War in Europe” or “Not at War in the Pacific” ideas. These could be kept at the ready to boost the Soviets if needed, or as an alternative to bidding for the weaker player.

Thanks CWO  Marc, I was hoping you’d drop by and help vet some of these.

I think the basis for the relatively high value of supply value of the NOs awarded, comes from the fact that Allies are returning so few victories. OOB no bid, and it is virtually impossible for Allies to win. Russia is so nerfed to begin with, and all there objectives are stalled on the DoW. I agree it’s debatable whether the Persian Corridor might be a gift, but sz 80 does provide Japan with some options. If it came down to attaching Egypt or India, I would probably substitute just one of these for Northwest Persia to keep with with the 2 land 1 convoy formula. But I do believe on balance that Russia needs more money. Considerably more than they receive OOB, if you’re going to support a no bid game for Allies.

I agree the 10 ipcs for Berlin is probably the worst of all. It leads me to think that most of the NOs in G40 were probably included before the game was thoroughly playtested. That one is just enitrely pointless, it is not a game driver, the objective to take Berlin is so obvious and so decisive already, it doesn’t need an extra NO to make it happen. Total waste of space in the rulebook hehe

In almost every game Russia has been the weak link, going back to the earliest days. Russia just doesn’t start with a sufficient unit roster or collect enough income to stand on its own through normal purchasing. Instead what usually happens, is a drive on Moscow in one form or another as the principle means by which Axis achieve victory. This is because the competent Axis player will realize that the center around Eurasia is ultimately the key to everything, since it has the most income, production, and factories. It also has the strongest strategic significance (since it is where all three Axis players can potentially converge on the enemy at a capital.) It provides a straightforward objective that the Axis player can rely upon… throw everything at the center! link your Axis forces! and then use the turn order advantage! to can open the core, or rush defense with tanks and fighter shifting, with the aim of eventually breaking the Russians on a 1-2 punch! You guys have seen this play out I’m sure. Its enough in the history and foundation of A&A that we see it happen in practically every WW2 game.

Now I understanding the dilemma in the Pacific is this, Japan is a monster at the outset! and this puts the US player in a bind, since they are the only player that can really affect the outcome in the Pacific. If they abandon the Atlantic and throw everything against Japan, even then, its still hard to overcome them over multiple rounds of purchase. All the while you know, if you don’t send anything against Germany, then Russia could very well fold before anything in the Pacific even matters. What are the Allies to do? Well they often default to the simple strategy of rush aid to the center to try and stabilize an unstable Russia.

But imagine, if the Allied player can count on Russia being a bit more stable, it then becomes easier to use your UK and US units in other ways. Like dedicating the necessary resources to a stall on Japan, or fight Italy or Germany, rather than just propping up Russia. Likewise for the Russians themselves. When you give Russia enough to purchase additional tanks or artillery or stack a little deeper for defense, they can then afford to put up a stronger resistance against Japan.

So far we’ve seen at least 3 NOs, that nobody here seems to enjoy, and which feel rather irrelevant to the gameplay. The first OOB Russian NO mentioned at the head of this thread. The +10 the first time Russia takes Berlin, which is just extraneous. And the Japanese Outer Perimeter, which is too onerous to achieve. Why not just ditch all 3 and try to come up with something better? I have suggested a few ways to get Russia a reasonable +5 ipcs.I like to award a +5 for no Allied units on red land. But you know that NO alone will not be sufficient, for all the reasons mentioned above about the Axis players aims at the center. Especially when you consider the double bombing threat that G and J can bring down on the Russians. They need at least another reliable +5 to maintain.

I have been considering a way to simplify the supply route idea into just a single NO. I wonder what people might think of this?

+5 ipcs if Russia controls any one of the following three territories: Archangel, Caucasus, Amur.

Theme: Access to Lend-Lease Materials, via Arctic Convoys, the Persian Corridor, the Pacific Route etc.

So long as the Russians control at least one of those three territories, they get +5, so its fairly simple for the Soviets to achieve (Axis must deny all three territories to lock out the Russian NO), but its purchasing power and TUV scope is also fairly limited (the most you can get is +5 for it.) This gives you basically two decent Russian NOs, to replace 2 rather impossible Russian NOs. Putting the Russians into a reasonable +10 ipcs range once at war, and a likely +5 ipcs into the endgame. Now if the Russians accept direct western aid in the form of units, then their potential bonus will drop by -5. But if they can at least manage to hold 1 of the 3 listed routes into the Soviet Union, they will still get their +5. I think it would do a lot to ease the pressure of the other Allies to manage the center crush. Basically what we give Russia here, the other Allies can then afford to divert in other directions.

2 russian NOs ditched, and 2 gained, to fix the Center. Or you could try some of the other combinations of Russian NO tweaks suggested above. Depending on where you’re comfortable range is. Whether 5-10, 10 + ipcs awarded. I tend to favor the later, especially when I play in groups where the skill level of all players is not necessarily matched up to perfection. 10+ allows more room for Allied mistakes, or terrible roll recoveries, or first round breaks. But +5 may be enough to for the most diehard.

But now that you guys brought up the “Next worse” NO hehe. Seriously, what are we going to do with the Japanese Outer Perimeter Islands! It really would be nice to see something done with this. If you eliminate this NO, and replace it with another you could open up some more options. A Soviet Japanese NAP objective, that gives a +5 to Russia and Japan so long as they are not at War with each other? (a way for it to work, where both sides have something to gain from it, as well to lose?) Or perhaps an additional US objective or Anzac objective that draws the fight against Japan. It seems like we could do better than the perimeter NO. I don’t really see Japan needed much more money than they already have access to, so I’d probably kill the NO, and give another power an extra one instead.