Star Wars Lives!

@Gamerman01:

But I did see Episode IV in school in like 2nd grade, when our Principal piped it into every classroom for Christmas.� (Circa 1982)

Damn… that must have been great. What an awesome principal.

@Gamerman01:

For a lot of people like those kids, the original 1, 2, or 3 movies are cult classics that can never be matched or exceeded.

This is the real heart of the problem. I read an article about this recently: people will forever compare any new Star Wars to their first experience with the original. It is a hopeless comparison because their first impressions had a quality wrapped in time which can never be, as you said, matched or exceeded. In that respect, comparisons and critiques are doomed to a certain judgement of inferiority.

@Gamerman01:

Episode IV didn’t explain anything about how we had come to this point. �In Episode V everyone was shocked to find out Darth Vader was Luke’s father. �So when you criticize episode VII for not telling you how you got here, well, wasn’t Episode IV just as guilty?! �If Episode VII was the first to come out in 1976 and now Episode IV came out in 2015, I bet Episode IV would be getting ripped the same way VII is now.� You know, if you flipped the film making technology and stuff too….

I don’t know that I quite agree here. Episode IV had the benefit, so-to-speak, of being the first installment of something completely new. As with any completely new story, especially a fantasy one, backstory is not heavily questioned. At least, a detailed backstory isn’t necessary. As an audience member you are really only concerned with the plot at hand. Any vague references to the framework of the universe it is set in generally suffice for the audience to just accept things. Obi-Wan’s little monologue in Ep. IV about the Jedi, Republic and Clone Wars was enough to establish, as Tolkien would say, “splendor from the vast backcloths”.

I suppose an analogous scene from TFA would be Han’s little “It’s all true” speech. However, in my opinion, Harrison Ford’s lines lack the weight of Alec Guinness’. Partially because we have all seen Ep IV already and partially because Han’s is more a starry eyed reverie than Obi-Wan’s almost sad reference to specific, grand events.

Speaking theoretically, The Force Awakens could not have been released (as it stands) as the first installment in a franchise. There is too much material in the film which directly references or is predicated on understanding of the universe established in Ep IV-VI. The Force Awakens would be watchable if it was the only Star Wars you had ever seen, but you would be missing out on the significance in many events.

I think the only way people would question the origins of A New Hope (were it released today as a prequel to The Force Awakens) is because they would feel like they were caught in some sort of crazy time loop. A New Hope is essentially the same movie as The Force Awakens… the prequel is the sequel. It is kind of mind bending, like chicken and the egg scenario. That is how bad the story rip-off is.

@LHoffman:

I don’t know that I quite agree here. Episode IV had the benefit, so-to-speak, of being the first installment of something completely new. As with any completely new story, especially a fantasy one, backstory is not heavily questioned. At least, a detailed backstory isn’t necessary. As an audience member you are really only concerned with the plot at hand. Any vague references to the framework of the universe it is set in generally suffice for the audience to just accept things.

Another advantage it had over all the other films (or, to put it differently, a distinct feature it had which never applied to any of the other films) is that it could have stood entirely on its own, as a satisfactory self-contained film.  Folks like me who saw it first run will recall that it was originally titled simply Star Wars, with no episode number or episode subtitle.  And when the movie ended, with the good guys celebrating their incredible victory over the bad guys, I for one felt that the story had been wrapped up neatly and I left the theatre feeling completely satisfied.  Yes, Darth Vader does escape near the end of the film, but overall the film simply leaves itself room to create a sequel rather than creating a situation in which it demands one (which is how The Empire Strikes Back ends).  Once it was clear that the original movie was a colossal hit, however, the next film turned the original movie into the first installment of a saga that would not only extend forward from it (because Empire ends abruptly with several major plot points unresolved) but also backwards from it (because this second film was numbered Episode V rather than II, something which left me completely baffled when the opening crawl appeared on the screen).

@CWO:

(because this second film was numbered Episode V rather than II, something which left me completely baffled when the opening crawl appeared on the screen).

You were like “HEY!!  How did I not know about the other 3 movies?!”

Me too, Marc.
Loving everyone’s write ups.
I saw it last week. I liked it; of course, I could see the plot mirrored the original film. Was a fun watch, though. (Bear in mind, I only see one or two films a year.)

@CWO:

Another advantage it had over all the other films (or, to put it differently, a distinct feature it had which never applied to any of the other films) is that it could have stood entirely on its own, as a satisfactory self-contained film.� Folks like me who saw it first run will recall that it was originally titled simply Star Wars, with no episode number or episode subtitle.� And when the movie ended, with the good guys celebrating their incredible victory over the bad guys, I for one felt that the story had been wrapped up neatly and I left the theatre feeling completely satisfied.� Yes, Darth Vader does escape near the end of the film, but overall the film simply leaves itself room to create a sequel rather than creating a situation in which it demands one (which is how The Empire Strikes Back ends).� Once it was clear that the original movie was a colossal hit, however, the next film turned the original movie into the first installment of a saga that would not only extend forward from it (because Empire ends abruptly with several major plot points unresolved) but also backwards from it (because this second film was numbered Episode V rather than II, something which left me completely baffled when the opening crawl appeared on the screen).

Very true. I always like that about Ep IV; it was expertly crafted as a stand-alone film. I appreciate Raiders of the Lost Ark for much of the same reason. Granted the Indiana Jones films are still highly episodic; you could watch either Temple of Doom or Last Crusade without having seen Raiders. But Raiders was by far the best and is an amazing single film.

@Gamerman01:

@CWO:

(because this second film was numbered Episode V rather than II, something which left me completely baffled when the opening crawl appeared on the screen).

You were like “HEY!!  How did I not know about the other 3 movies?!”

:lol: :lol:  Ha! Is that what you guys thought in 1980?    That confused the heck out of me when I first watched Star Wars on video tape back in 1998. Granted I was only 8 years old…

@Gamerman01:

@CWO:

(because this second film was numbered Episode V rather than II, something which left me completely baffled when the opening crawl appeared on the screen).

You were like “HEY!!  How did I not know about the other 3 movies?!”

Precisely.  The movie opened with me going “Huh?” at the “Episode V” part and the movie ended with me going “Huh?” when the end credits abruptly appeared without the story being resolved.  It was a very puzzling experience, and to be honest I felt a lingering dissatisfaction with Empire for many years afterwards, even after Jedi came out and wrapped up the story.

I tended to think of it as the low point of a V-shaped trilogy.  It was only later, when I re-watched the three films on video, that I gradually cane to appreciate it more.  I admit that I still tend to fast-forward through the Dagobah sequences, which aren’t really to my taste, but the rest of the film is first-rate.  Just last evening, in fact, I re-watched the Battle of Hoth section of the film, which in my opinion is very successful from a cinematic point of view.  It features imaginative and awe-inspiring technology, i.e. the Imperial Walkers, and rapid, exciting action – but at the same time, it’s careful to keep the action clear and coherent. The editing is brisk, with some shots lasting only a couple of seconds, but even at the height of the action there’s never any doubt about what’s going on.  An excellent example is the sequence in which Luke runs under an AT-AT and destroys it single-handedly: the sequence comprises about half-a-dozen shots packed into twenty or thirty seconds, but it holds together perfectly and the rapid (but careful) editing creates high excitement without any confusion.  There’s even a one-second shot that shows Luke unclipping his climbing line after he’s tossed an explosive into the hull of the machine, and a barely-longer shot that shows him dropping to the ground: just enough to give you the required information to understand what happened, but without a moment of waste.  The longest part of the whole sequence – perhaps a whole ten seconds long – is the three-shot payoff that shows the AT-AT blowing up and keeling over to the ground and that gives the audience the opportunity to cheer (silently or otherwise) in triumph.  Contrast this with, let’s say, the battles in Revenge of the Sith, which seem to emphasize sensory overload and frenetic speed rather than coherence.

@CWO:

Precisely.  The movie opened with me going “Huh?” at the “Episode V” part and the movie ended with me going “Huh?” when the end credits abruptly appeared without the story being resolved.  It was a very puzzling experience, and to be honest I felt a lingering dissatisfaction with Empire for many years afterwards, even after Jedi came out and wrapped up the story.

Empire Strikes Back is considered the greatest Star Wars film precisely because of its darker/grittier tone, somewhat complex plot (for Star Wars) and franchise defining reveal/twist. When I was younger I couldn’t appreciate the more nuanced nature of the film, I recognized the action scenes mostly. Empire has some of the best and worst moments of Star Wars. I too still find the film’s pacing to be atrocious and choppy. It starts out with a bang and then very quickly becomes mired in a (literal) bog of boringness and exposition. Much of this exposition and character development is critical to the story and has its place, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is a total slog that is never really remedied. Even the Cloud City climax is somewhat ponderous and dark. Again, not totally bad, but it also seems to drag.

Reminds me of reading the Frodo and Sam portion of the Two Towers… You are in a maze or rocks and gullies, then a swamp, then a dark stairway, then a dark hole in the ground… It is a very boring drag, albeit with much important information.

@CWO:

I tended to think of it as the low point of a V-shaped trilogy.  It was only later, when I re-watched the three films on video, that I gradually cane to appreciate it more.  I admit that I still tend to fast-forward through the Dagobah sequences, which aren’t really to my taste, but the rest of the film is first-rate.  Just last evening, in fact, I re-watched the Battle of Hoth section of the film, which in my opinion is very successful from a cinematic point of view.  It features imaginative and awe-inspiring technology, i.e. the Imperial Walkers, and rapid, exciting action – but at the same time, it’s careful to keep the action clear and coherent. The editing is brisk, with some shots lasting only a couple of seconds, but even at the height of the action there’s never any doubt about what’s going on.  An excellent example is the sequence in which Luke runs under an AT-AT and destroys it single-handedly: the sequence comprises about half-a-dozen shots packed into twenty or thirty seconds, but it holds together perfectly and the rapid (but careful) editing creates high excitement without any confusion.  There’s even a one-second shot that shows Luke unclipping his climbing line after he’s tossed an explosive into the hull of the machine, and a barely-longer shot that shows him dropping to the ground: just enough to give you the required information to understand what happened, but without a moment of waste.  The longest part of the whole sequence – perhaps a whole ten seconds long – is the three-shot payoff that shows the AT-AT blowing up and keeling over to the ground and that gives the audience the opportunity to cheer (silently or otherwise) in triumph.  Contrast this with, let’s say, the battles in Revenge of the Sith, which seem to emphasize sensory overload and frenetic speed rather than coherence.

What you point out here echos yet another article I read last week: http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-george-awakens

It is a well written article, even though I disagree with calling Lucas a “Tolkien-level master” (at worldbuilding); there are few, if any who approach Tolkien. And for at least a couple reasons I could name offhand, Lucas is not one of those, good as he was.

Anyway, the main gist of the article points out that Lucas is far better as a film editor than a director. In fact, he has always considered himself more comfortable sitting in front of the cutting room TV than behind the camera directing. The writer says that this is evident in the woodenness of much dialogue and acting at many points in Ep I - VI.

@LHoffman:

The writer says that this is evident in the woodenness of much dialogue and acting at many points in Ep I - VI.

I once saw a screen test for the original Star Wars movie in which Harrison Ford and Mark Hammil were reading lines to each other.  The Luke character at one point is saying something about the Empire that (thankfully) never made it into the final film; I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was some sort of remark about the shaky basis for the Empire’s power, and hence about its ultimate vulnerability.  The dialogue was incredibly leaden, clunky and convoluted.  Harrison Ford – perhaps in reference to that part of the script – once told George Lucas, “George, you can write this **** but you can’t get people to say it.”

Dagobah is a slog in many ways, but I enjoy the mysticism attached to Yoda’s teaching of the force, culminating in the chill-inducing X-wing scene. By contrast, almost every reference to the force in TFA feels contrived and weak, with too much emphasis on “light side” and “dark side” for convenient storytelling purposes.

@General:

Dagobah is a slog in many ways, but I enjoy the mysticism attached to Yoda’s teaching of the force, culminating in the chill-inducing X-wing scene. By contrast, almost every reference to the force in TFA feels contrived and weak, with too much emphasis on “light side” and “dark side” for convenient storytelling purposes.

I suppose that it could have been worse: the new movie might have referred to the “right side” and “wrong side” of the Force.  I cringe at the thought.

@Gamerman01:

the hate rushes through the pores of all these 40+ year old fanboys.  They are very susceptible to the dark side….

Hm, I am happy for my friends who like the movie, or find it entertaining. No need to call them xy fanboys myself because of that. Or can you not accept that people dont like what you like?

And for many people who are not happy about the new movie, I daresay its not because they revere IV, V or VI so much, but are likely to be a lot through the EU (expanded universe) and have more background, and therefore also more expectations and questions (not that all of EU has been good, the opposite really with some things imho, but much was; and it all was canon until recently, so no one could dismiss it, even if just going by the movies is certainly enough to love Star Wars). Now no way a movie can (or, nowadays, want to) fill those gaps, I appreciate that. Grudgingly. But I cant just blend out the possibilities and love it because its Star Wars and the whole earthball says “enjoy”. Compared to the gigantic promotion machinery, media coverage and people who like the movie, the few people Gamerman calls hateful 40+ fanboys should be easy to stomach. I think its the dark side to attack them personally as hateful while those people criticise the movie, not its fans; there might be some who condescend, sure, but most dont, I dont). I think when people with other movies or series call for more or point out whats not so good (everyone does, come on), they get a lot less fire for that. Because Star Wars creates passion (I see that in every game store nowadays when the movie is discussed), and that again ties both groups together, both feel subjectively and ardently for it in some way.

In any case, I feel that with this unparalleled merchandising and money making of every aspect, in every supermarket, they owe more substance. I know it likely wont happen, but there is hope still. It really cant be otherwise.

alexgreat, my personal devil’s advocate

Man, you misunderstand me on a regular basis  :lol:  Something’s lost in the culture differences

@alexgreat:

But I cant just blend out the possibilities and love it because its Star Wars and the whole earthball says “enjoy”.

This is an amazing quote! I love it. I am completely serious.

Alex - not speaking English endows you with a uniquely expressive dialect. I for one appreciate your genius.

@alexgreat:

In any case, I feel that with this unparalleled merchandising and money making of every aspect, in every supermarket, they owe more substance. I know it likely wont happen, but there is hope still. It really cant be otherwise.

This is something that has been on my mind also. I don’t know if it really is different this time or if I was simply too young back in 2003-2005 to notice the marketing for the prequel trilogy. The merchandising for Force Awakens has been utterly insane. It was/is everywhere. Every single Christmas commercial seemed to have either a callout to Star Wars or people using Star Wars toys/clothes as subject props. Star Wars was in car commercials, jewelry ads, Subway, Campbell’s soup… it was literally everywhere. I could no longer tell what advertising was being paid for and who was advertising Star Wars merchandise of their own accord because everyone else was doing it and they thought it was a selling point.

I should not be surprised, considering the history of Star Wars merchandising, but this just felt ridiculous. Part of that was the feeling of “why are they trying so hard?” It’s not like people don’t know Star Wars is coming out. Does all that constant advertising browbeat even non-Star Wars fans into feeling like they have to see the movie to stay culturally relevant? Needless to say, I am not a fan of the over-the-top advertising.

@LHoffman:

I should not be surprised, considering the history of Star Wars merchandising, but this just felt ridiculous. Part of that was the feeling of “why are they trying so hard?”

Perhaps because the movies themselves have come to be seen by the studios as simply giant-scale commercials for the merchandise and the marketing rights, which are no longer just (to quote the Mel Brooks films Spaceballs) spin-off products “where the real money from the movie is made” but rather are now (arguably) the main products for which the films simply provide the set-up.  Case in point: when I went to see The Force Awakens, the theatre – knowing it had a captive audience, and which had probably been paid handsomely by advertisers – showed twice as many pre-movie commercials as it normally does.  Twelve commercials, in fact, not counting the movie preview trailers.  The film’s advertised start time was 2:30, but it actually only got under way at 2:55, after almost half-an-hour of ads and trailers.  Watching commercials for tree on TV is bad enough; paying to watch commercials in a theatre is even worse; and paying to watch twice as many commercials as usual is positively infuriating.

An early anticipation of the Mel Brooks joke above (which I found funny at the time, but which I found less funny as I realized that it had turned into reality) is a joke that was used on the 1960s spy spoof TV series Get Smart, which was finally released on DVD a couple of years ago.  The good guys, Max and Agent 99, are in a Chinese laundry confronting the two bad guys, The Claw and his huge, muscular sidekick Bobo (who is as strong as an ox and just about as dumb).  Max states that he has figured out that The Claw is using the laundry as a front from which he operates a spy ring.  Bobo comments, “Actually, the spy ring is the front.  The real money is in the laundry.”  The Claw leans forward and says to Max in a low voice, “The less he knows, the better.”  Given saturation marketing campaign we’ve seen around The Force Awakes, however, I’ve started thinking that maybe Bobo was right all along.

Maybe we should get some first Hand opinion. SNL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaOSCASqLsE

:-D

Here is a Star Wars question: If you were Mace Windu and discovered that Palpatine was the Sith Lord, and had your choice of any three Clone War era Jedi at your side for the confrontation, who would you choose?

None.  The fact that the three Jedi who confronted Palpatine at Mace Windu’s side were quickly killed isn’t a problem because Windu subsequently defeated Palpatine in single combat – and not just once, but twice.  The real problem was that Windu didn’t kill Palpatine immediately after defeating him on each occasion.  One can perhaps make allowances for the first time, given that Windu defeated him pretty handily in a straightforward lightsaber duel – even if you consider the fact that Palpatine was skillful enough at swordfighting to kill three Jedi in a few seconds in a one-against-four fight.  But in the second confrontation between them, Windu barely survived Palpatine’s force-lightning attack (and doesn’t even seem to have anticipated that Palpatine might be able to attack him in this way)…so when he finally escaped by the barest of margins and once again got an opportunity to dispose of such an incredibly dangerous enemy, the sensible thing would have been to take no chances and kill him at once.  Instead, Windu started making long-winded editorial comments that were transparently meant (from a scriptwriting point of view) to give Anakin the time and the motivation to turn against Windu and thus provide Palpatine with a chance to gleefully catapult him to his death.

I really like that answer

I do have one question - wasn’t Windu really worried about what would happen if he had privately killed Palpatine with pretty much no witnesses?  Didn’t everything he believed in, scream against an execution like that?  Didn’t he hope for a trial?

(I don’t remember what he was saying while he had Palpatine on his back gasping for air)

Veritas, my kids and I LOVED that SNL clip!!!

As Harry Plinkett wondered aloud in his Attack of the Clones review, why didn’t the Jedi Council request blood tests of senators if they were afraid a Sith was pulling strings there?