The oob setup is clearly slated towards the axis. I think the Russian bomber with a bid on top of that should do well to even the scales somewhat. The string about Russia’s opening moves is pretty darn good. With that being said, there is only so much Russia can do before it’s lights out for the allies.
It’s imperative for the Allies to control the Atlantic. Given round 1, GB gets it’s navy waxed, it makes no sense to try to build it back right away. Absolutely must do battle for UK is to attack the Japan Car, Battleship and 2 fighters on round 1. Do so with everything from India and fleet from Australia. Bring transport form the Aussie’s as well. This is a 50/50 endeavor with the fighter from Egypt. If round one goes terrible, retreat to India as one massive fleet. It is also wise to purchase a fighter round 1 in the event of retreat to place on carrier.
The US should make a bee line to money islands in Pacific. US can take Borneo round 2. Round 1 purchase is up in the air but essential to buy, at a minimum, 1 carrier for Atlantic side. This way by round 3, the carrier can be in the UK capital waters to help bolster an allied fleet with more in the supply line.
I know I’m not giving much detail here because there is a lot of reactionary play involved to all of this. I’ve heard comments that playing US and UK is really boring after turn one which I completely disagree with. There’s plenty of options for the Allies but I will concede that I’ve not had the opportunity to play H2H much, only Triple-A on Hard A-I. I can routinely pummel the computer. Please go easy on me. I think I have merit but want to see what the community has to say? I’m convinced any individual can learn something from any other individual; including adults learning from children. Thus, my cup is never full, there is always room to learn more. I look forward to your comments.
I have to give a shout out to YoungGrassHopper for posting some AWSOME videos. Thanks for the inspiration to build a custom table for face-2-face play.
I am not a great fan of the sz37 attack. If it goes wrong the impact upon the UK’s position east of Suez can be devastating. Those UK naval units have other options, such as retreat to the south Atlantic to rendezvous with the naval force from Australia so allowing a return to the Indian ocean or move up to the north Atlantic. Another option is a UK Med focus. Or an immediate rendezvous with the Australian force in the South Indian ocean. Or go for the J TT off China. I try to mix these up and not be predictable.
I find R’s survival more important than any other factor for the allies. To this end I will sacrifice all sorts in order to get a UK fleet off Europe and a US bomber force in the UK. In the meantime keeping enough of a US naval threat in the Pacific to keep J busy, before then expanding that as soon as I can. Can be touch and go. Perhaps here I am falling into predictability!
BTW I too played triple a hard AI many times. Typically it presents you with the same challenges over and over again, the risk being that you learn to repeat the same winning strategy, mistakenly believing you have it “cracked”. I tried to break this by continually awarding hard AI more of a “bid”, but it didn’t really work. Once you have hard AI worked out it becomes hard to lose! :wink:
Then you play a human opponent and they insist on not following your game plan! (Many of us play others remotely using triple a and posting our turns on this Forum.)
Welcome to the Forum CupNeverFull. Look forward to reading your other responses …
Well I’m a fan of the attack on sz37 because if the japanese hook that fleet up with their other ships there going to have 2 Battleships, 2 aircraft carriers both with 2 fighters, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, and 1 sub plus any other ships that they build. Now that’s hard for US to deal with unless they go almost 100% Pacific. The only time I wouldn’t attack sz37 if the allies were doing KGF.
My over all saying is that I agree with what you said and also welcome to the forums.
Attacking sz 37 is bad as UK. Even if UK wins the 50/50, Japan can clean up and still completely control the pacific. Only makes sense to attack sz 37 if us is going all-in on Japan. Much better to sink the Japan trans and destroyer with a cruiser and fighter. Retreat everything else.
UK should buy 3 land in India and 2 fighters UK for many rounds. UK fighters fly to wrussia and then India. Fighters provide critical support to these important territories and can threaten Japan fleet eventually.
I’m pretty sure that Russia attacking only wrussia with everything r1 is optimal without a bid. With a bomber bid, Ukraine is attractive. Attacking Ukraine and wrussia risks Germany stacking Karelia r1 which is a disaster for Russia. Russia can do a surprisingly good job preventing Germany from stacking Karelia. They key is to preserve forces and buy tanks as necessary.
UK/us fleet structure is such that landing Africa r3 and Europe r4 is standard. Germany has many territories. It strongly favors allies to trade in as many as possible.
Standard allied path to victory with good play on both sides looks like this. Russia holds wrussia with uk support, UK holds India with buys and fighters. Us and UK fleet trade with Germany for 10-20 rounds until germany is weakened. I imagine a standard game takes about 18-28 rounds to conclude. Games with a large skill diff can be over in 12.
Why should you believe me? I have played over 600 games of revised at the highest levels. New world order as well. There are barely any players of this map so I haven’t actually played this map in a while. I’m not currently aware of any players stronger than me on this map. If you would like to play, please pm me :)
I agree and disagree on Sz 37. Lol!
I think it is bad if your thought process is “I can try to kill these J units” (cause they are right there and it is so tempting!) but after that you don’t really have a plan.
However, it is very powerful if your intended strategy is to go after Japan with the US. (quick note, I wouldn’t do sz 37 without at least 1 bid unit).
With coordinated US 1 moves you can have a US fleet at Wake or Sol in rd 1 and from then then on you pick off 1 island a turn while keeping your fleet out of any danger.
This assumes you will be committing 100% of the US to the Pacific.
That said, I have a much harder time in the Atlantic going KGF, then I do going after Japan. So it could just be a byproduct of my play style right now. I’m good with Russia and good at going after Japan, but the Atlantic sea zones still bother me for shucking purposes. I’m just not efficient there yet.
Africa in rd2/3 seems about right, then heading north as MI suggests for rd 4 seems like my normal Atlantic time frame. But beyond that I start to lose efficiency in the Atlantic some where along the way and it turns into desperate mode of keeping Rus alive instead of doing something productive and eventually J just gets too strong. Whether it is rd 10, 15, 20, etc, the writing tends to be on the wall for a while.
I’m pretty sure that Russia attacking only wrussia with everything r1 is optimal without a bid.
With a bomber bid, Ukraine is attractive.Attacking Ukraine and wrussia risks Germany stacking Karelia r1 which is a disaster for Russia.
That’s a great point about Karelia. 7 inf and some tanks aren’t that easy to dislodge on turn 2 if you’ve divided your forces. On turn 3 Germany can land some planes and build more units and you pretty much need to retreat from WRussia. I’d been thinking about why the Ukraine attack strategy hasn’t worked in the past for me and I think that’s it. Been a while since I’ve played this board also.
Has anyone tried an attack Finland strategy? Perhaps with just 1-2 inf 1 art 1 fighter vs the 3 inf. Replace the 2nd inf with a tank? Significantly reduces the amount of troops coming into Karelia but at the cost of reducing the strength of WRussia. If the rolls go against you, you can still retreat to keep the fighter.
Attacking WRussia with everything is overkill - you’ll almost always kill everything first round. There might be something more productive to do with those units. Or is attacking Baltic States the best option?
I agree with MarineIguana. The only consistent strategy (I have tested a lot of different ones) for the allies on this map is to stack West Russia and pass fighters through it. I would like to add that it really helps/is crucial to get the US in on this. I like to move my fighters from continental US to Canada, and build a fully loaded carrier and destroyer Round 1. Then pass all 4 of these fighters to Iceland, then Wrus (or Moscow if somehow the situation has gotten out of control.)
You also need to pull the British fleet from Canada, India, and Australia together in the South Atlantic ASAP (round 3). This way you can start trading with Germany Round 4. Bombers don’t help fast enough, going after Japan only helps a bit. I do like to take Baltic as the Russians to kill the tank and get the infantry and get a decent income (likely your last). Move the Russian fighter down to Egypt and set up Caucasus as a tank trap. First five rounds as allies are tough, but it’s worth it if you can get the fleets going and you end up with enjoyable gargantuan fighter stacks.
Bid wise I think a British sub in the Mediterranean and Russian ground forces are the most useful. If you can keep Africa and get a good Russian stack going you have a slim chance. I’ve worked KJF before but I think fighter pass is the only decent strategy against a good axis player.
I always try to get 7inf and two tanks and ftr on karelia and Caucasus r1. Unless I give up karelia and threaten Japan in Asia on r1. Former is safest. But trapping Germany in a back and forth land WAR is never good for them if you are teaming up well as allies.
U.K.first move is usually to take Borneo and New guinea on uk1. Having bought three tanks and a bomber saving one ipc. I buy three tanks every round until Japan wins our gives up. A bomber a turn from U.K.and U.S.each turn will quickly turn Germany’s income into 20 less! Giving Russia time to hold on and press back even on both fronts!
If Japan doesn’t take back at least Borneo on j1 then U.K.has four more income until they do. Your fleet is gone but the extra turns gives allies time to rebuild and prepare for Torch and Market Garden,D-Day etc.
With U.S.taking Solomon’s first turn. The Japanese will have to decide between destroying the navies and taking India before it can build up. If they don’t take the bait you now have a sizable navy in Pacific and kjf might be a good option. Have U.S.alternate buys between Atlantic and Pacific. You can threaten to land units in Soviet far east or Japan in 1 or 2 turns with U.S.
Bottom line: Germany can’t defeat Russia with bombing raids from U.K.and U.S.and fighter support. Trading land with Russia will eat up the rest of their ipcs. Japan needs to rush to Moscow to save Germany but you will slow them down if you threaten the money islands. And threaten landing units in the far east.
I always try to get 7inf and two tanks and ftr on karelia and Caucasus r1.
But Germany can get in 7 inf 3 arm, planes and more including an amphibious assault to Karelia.
U.K.first move is usually to take Borneo and New guinea on uk1. Having bought three tanks and a bomber saving one ipc. I buy three tanks every round until Japan wins our gives up. A bomber a turn from U.K.and U.S.each turn will quickly turn Germany’s income into 20 less! Giving Russia time to hold on and press back even on both fronts!
Do you mean here to support the assault with a fighter off the carrier? Otherwise it has a 30% or so chance of failure. It means foregoing attacking the SZ37 fleet.
I think that Russia must attack Ukraine because if they do not, Germany can throw everything at West Russia in a 50-50 battle which will deplete Russia. In my first, and only game in the tournament, I got average dice against Germany and played it safe by attacking West Russia only. Germany hit with everything that could get there and the result was a total loss of ground troops by both forces. Germany was able to retreat without loss of fighters. Take a look at S01 Cow vs Craykirk in the tournament listings for what can happen.
The allies have to be patient and wait until they can force the Axis to start trading expensive pieces that they cannot afford to replace. It all depends on how the dice go in the first round.
Of course, I have no idea how to play the game and lose no matter which side I take. I tried a bomber bid for Russia and it failed miserably…
I have much to learn, evidently…
CK
I found the thread but it didn’t include a human readable description of what happened on R1.
I don’t get the comment about the 50-50 battle for West Russia? If everything is poured in, you have 12 inf 3 art 4 arm. Germany can’t dream of countering that.
I found the thread but it didn’t include a human readable description of what happened on R1.
I don’t get the comment about the 50-50 battle for West Russia? If everything is poured in, you have 12 inf 3 art 4 arm. Germany can’t dream of countering that.
Actually, Germany can. Russia usually loses two infantry in the W. Russia attack, so it only has 10 inf, 3 art, and 4 arm in defense. On G1, Germany can counterattack with 6 inf, 1 art, 4 arm, 6 fight, and 1 bomb. Germany has roughly an 80% chance of winning if they go all out and a 45% chance of winning if they attack until only air units are left.
Download TripleA and install. Start a game so the savegames folder is in the TripleA folder of your downloads. You can then download the save game and load into TripleA and look at the history of the moves. I might have hit Baltic and gotten less than optimal (don’t we all) rolls in West Russia. Either way, if you don’t hit Ukraine, then those infantry and any tanks within range can also hit West Russia. It would have helped if one of the two AA had hit however, I seem to only roll 1’s when I am doing a bombing raid on an industrial complex… ;)
@Herr:
I found the thread but it didn’t include a human readable description of what happened on R1.
I don’t get the comment about the 50-50 battle for West Russia? If everything is poured in, you have 12 inf 3 art 4 arm. Germany can’t dream of countering that.
Actually, Germany can. Russia usually loses two infantry in the W. Russia attack, so it only has 10 inf, 3 art, and 4 arm in defense. On G1, Germany can counterattack with 6 inf, 1 art, 4 arm, 6 fight, and 1 bomb. Germany has roughly an 80% chance of winning if they go all out and a 45% chance of winning if they attack until only air units are left.
I guess but one AAA drops the odds to 62% for Germany. The second one doesn’t fit with the calculator but probably the suggestion of 50-50 is about right.
This is a bit academic though if you accept the wisdom of my attack on Belorussia.
@craykirk:
Download TripleA and install.
I normally use Linux but I’ve got it now.
I notice that only 8 inf and 2 art are in WRus. Baltic States has been attacked which does weaken West Russia. Somehow the second russian fighter has been downed. A pretty nightmare start for the Soviets.
I sent the other fighter to Egypt as protection. I did hit Baltic as well hoping to eliminate a tank and slow the march to Karelia. Never seen it or ever considered doing it however it makes sense to do it considering how the odds get worse as Russia can continue to reinforce and threaten Germany. Add fighters from Brit/USA and it almost becomes imperative. I haven’t really found a good way to counter unless Ukraine is hit. Allowing Germany to stack West Russia pretty much ensures a quick game.
My humble opinion is Axis might have a slight advantage, but overall the game is pretty balanced. Adding 1 infantry to Russia might be enough, and a Russia bomber addition is a good one and adds lot of variety to R1 opening move.
I’ve tried out a few strategies as allies and I’ve found a few that are hard to win without :
Us starting fleet needs to take out the money islands of Philippines, East Indies and Borneo. Must hold west Russia.
I also move the Kazakhstan troop to Szechwan to deter the attack on the fighter r1 and build a ic on sinkiang, move five Russians to Yakutsk r1 and pass us fighters there. Build a us carrier in the Atlantic and stage UK fighters to it. This helps to building a north sea fleet. The UK can’t do it very quickly.
Maybe a UK complex on Egypt but only if you can hold it. It will also suck up a lot of UK production.
Executed well, I’m no longer convinced that the axis have the advantage.
I always try to get 7inf and two tanks and ftr on karelia and Caucasus r1.
But Germany can get in 7 inf 3 arm, planes and more including an amphibious assault to Karelia.
U.K.first move is usually to take Borneo and New guinea on uk1. Having bought three tanks and a bomber saving one ipc. I buy three tanks every round until Japan wins our gives up. A bomber a turn from U.K.and U.S.each turn will quickly turn Germany’s income into 20 less! Giving Russia time to hold on and press back even on both fronts!
Do you mean here to support the assault with a fighter off the carrier? Otherwise it has a 30% or so chance of failure. It means foregoing attacking the SZ37 fleet.
1. In all my playing, it is never wise for Germany to get involved in a land war in Asia too soon! As soon as you start trading pieces with Russia and are bombed by the allies, you’ll see your IPC advantage disappear. Also, Russia is buying mainly Inf while Germany is buying (or has to lose) tons of higher value pieces after their Inf is quickly wasted on the Russian front. Attacking Karelia is safer than Caucausus, but still won’t win for Germany in the end. Attacking Caucausus too soon is bad for the same reasons, and worse because you are one more space further from resupply, the Russians will take it back.
2. have to use the fighter to make sure it happens, two Inf, cruiser bomb., should be able to defeat 1 Inf. If you take these two, you take away 5 IPC from Japan to start with, this also places your navy in the south away from the main land. Japan either takes the bait, or loses 5 IPC until they can take back those islands. if they ignore the UK fleet, then you will have a stronger fleet for US to join with and hopefully keep and hold the money islands and allow US to build a factory on them, if needed. sz37 doesn’t appeal to me, if you win, you won’t have much left, and once your fleet is gone you can’t use it to threaten Japan. worse you will lose everything and still have no land to show for it.
I don’t know what you mean about it being unwise for Germany to get involved in km karelia. I’m sure it is imprudent not to.
Wouldn’t Japan just take down the British ships which are in range if you don’t do sz37?
