@SuperbattleshipYamato hard to argue against any of this really. The IJN was so far gone by this point in the war that there’s not really much they could have done to salvage their situation one way or another. The bit about the allies not having many LSTs in general is something I never knew before though.
Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage
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I’m reminded of reading Has von Lucks memiors and his actions during the same time period.
That would be the von Luck who claims he personally saved the day (July18, Goodwood) by forcing an 8.8cm AA Unit to fire on the advancing British tanks .
Trouble is no one can find out a scrap of evidence that there were any guns there at all. Apart from the claim of von Luck there is not a shred of evidence it happened.@wittmann:
The fact the town was not captured and the Division and XXX Corps attack was called off suggests the losses in tanks were high enough to render any more offensive action out of the question until loses were made up.
You might want to reflect that 11th Armoured Division suffered 120 tank casualties on 18/7/44 and was able to continue the attack on both 19 and 20th July and compare that to the 25 tank losses (25 from a Divisional total of 280) you claimed rendered 7th Armoured Division unfit for further action at Villers Bocage.
A word of caution folks… do not be too inclined to believe a guy who dresses up as a half lizard on weekends.
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That’s a really cool story Wittmann, I wondered if the picture in your avatar matched the name you used.
It’s really not that surprising that wittmann would have gotten such a high kill rate as the British seemed to have trouble coordinating infantry and armour operations. I’m reminded of reading Has von Lucks memiors and his actions during the same time period.
Thank you Clyde. I love tanks, always have. If I had not chosen a famous German, I would have chosen a Southern US Civil War General as my username, as that is my favourite conflict. Never thought to use my own name!
Have not read anyone’s memoirs though. I bought Achtung Panzer, but have not read much of it. -
LSSAH was a part of panzer reserve, which included 12th SS Panzer Division “Hitlerjugend” and the Panzer Lehr Division. At that time the command of sSSPzAbt 101 was given to Heinz von Westernhagen (Tiger #007), while the 1st Kompanie was commanded by Hauptsturmfuhrer Mobius. On the June 6th of 1944 (D-Day), Wittmann got a new late production model Tiger I #205. From 6th to 12th June, sSSPzAbt 101 moved to the invasion front in Normandy. On their way, Wittmann’s 2nd Kompanie was reduced to six Tigers by Allied air attacks. Wittmann’s company along with the Panzer Lehr Division and the 12th SS Panzer Division “Hitlerjugend” was part of Heeresgruppe under the command of Erwin Rommel. On June 13th, the battle began near Bayeux area. At the time Wittmann’s company was near Villiers-Bocage, at the south of Tilly-sur-Seulles (Caen area). On June 13th of 1944, Wittmann’s company destroyed entire 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment travelling on the road No.175 to Villers-Bocage, at the Hill No.213.
“Wittmann in Villers Bocage”
On 13th June 1944, a week after D-day, following a drive from Beauvais under repeated air attack, 2nd Kompanie of sSSPzAbt 101 led by Michael Wittmann had 6 Tigers located in the area of Hill (Point) 213 ahove Villers Bocage.
His orders were to stop the advance of the 22nd Armored Brigade of the British 7th Armored Division (the famous ‘Desert Rats’) from advancing through the township, outflanking the German line and gaining the road to Caen. Wittmann’s company hidden behind a hedgerow spotted the enemy column, which passed him at a distance of 200 meters.
At about 8:00am, Wittmann attacked the British column on the main road, while the rest of his company (4 Tigers as one brokedown) attacked the British forces around Hill 213.
Soon after, Wittmann destroyed Sherman Firefly and Cromwell IV and headed south to attack the rest of the enemy transport column. After knocking out 8 half-tracks, 4 Bren Carriers and 2 6 pdr anti-tank guns, Wittmann reached the crossroad with the road to Tilly-sur-Seulles.
At the crossroad, he destroyed 3 Stuart tanks from recon unit and reached the outskirts of the town of Villers-Bocage. While in town, Wittmann destroyed 4 Cromwell IV tanks and single half-track and turns into Rue Pasteur. Following up the street, he knocked out Cromwell IV and Sherman OP tank, reaching the main street of Villers-Bocage. At the end of Rue Pasteur, Wittmann’s Tiger was hit by Sherman Firefly from B Squadron and he decided to turn back as being too far forward without any infantry support and in a build-up area.
He turned in the direction of Caen to join the rest of his company. On his way back, Wittmann’s Tiger was attacked by another Cromwell IV, which he destroyed as well. Back at the Tilly crossroad, British soldiers from 1st Rifle Brigade opened fire at Wittmann with their 6 pdr anti-tank gun, immobilizing his Tiger. Wittmann and his crew managed to escape on foot towards the Panzer Lehr positions 7km away near Orbois. The rest of his company at the Hill 213, destroyed the rest of the A Squadron of 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment (“Sharpshooters”) including 5 Cromwell IV and Sherman Firefly, while capturing 30 men. During this short engagement, Wittmann’s company destroyed 4 Sherman Firefly, 20 Cromwell, 3 Stuart, 3 M4 Sherman OP, 14 half-tracks, 16 Bren Carriers and 2 6 pdr anti-tank guns. Wittmann’s attack was followed by another one by Tigers of Hauptsturmfuehrer Rolf Moebius’ 1st Kompanie of sSSPzAbt 101 and Panzerkampfwagen IV tanks from Panzer Lehr but was repulsed by anti-tank guns from 22nd Armored Brigade. Following day, British withdrew from the town leaving it to the Germans, who occupied it for next two months. The British drive on Villers Bocage and Caen was stopped cold by Wittmann’s attack and following actions.
FROM “ACHTUNG PANZER” allready translated (this saved my job)
I higlighted some lines! -
We know that both sides took out the best part of it (Villers Bocage), but it is sure and true that Wittmann started a single action and knocked out a few Tanks, carriers etc. and stopped in a certain way the British attempt, it will also be true that he escaped and brought back Reinforcements leading them himself.
For now as far as we know it was a one time Single action deal and M. Wittmann deserves his portion of credits!
And as far as I looked it up in all sources I found ,there is not much of a diffrence in that story.
Let us not debate on numbers and scrapped metal! -
Thank you for your time Aequitas.
I knew I should have finished Achtung Panzer!I must say that despite having read two reports from British officers from CLY from June 13th describing the events, neither were from A Squadron, so I cannot pinpoint from my sources how many A Squadron tanks Wittmann personally destroyed. His 2nd Company did wipe out the balance of them after his engaging them.
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@wittmann:
I love tanks, always have. If I had not chosen a famous German, I would have chosen a Southern US Civil War General as my username, as that is my favourite conflict. Never thought to use my own name!
Here’s a Civil War / WWII connection you may find interesting. In the Ken Burns documentary The Civil War, Shelby Foote refers to the fact that, in the movie Patton, George C. Scott (as Patton) says “We Americans have never lost a war”. Foote comments that this is an extraordinary statement for him to make because Patton’s grandfather served in Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia “and he certainly lost a war.”
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The South is still fighting the war.
Shelby Foote should know that.I always forget which Virginia regiment his grandfather commanded. Have looked it up. Was the 22nd. (Wasn’t even close in my guess.)
Grr! -
@wittmann:
I cannot pinpoint from my sources how many A Squadron tanks Wittmann personally destroyed
Possibly one (Sherman Firefly ‘Blondie’)but that was it.
@wittmann:
so I cannot pinpoint from my sources how many A Squadron tanks Wittmann personally destroyed. His 2nd Company did wipe out the balance of them after his engaging them.
Their is no dispute most of the Cromwells and 4 Firefly tanks in A Squadron were lost but it is also a fact only 3 were engaged and penetrated by Tigers (2 Firefly and 1 Cromwell) because the majority (circa 15-20 tanks) were simply abandoned and/or set on fire by the crews.
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@aequitas:
On June 13th of 1944, Wittmann�s company destroyed entire 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment travelling on the road No.175 to Villers-Bocage, at the Hill No.213.
No he did not.
4th County Of London Yeomanry consisted of:
RHQ Troop 4 Tanks
Recce troop 11 Stuart tanks
AA Troop 4 Tanks
A Squadron 20 tanks
B Squadron 20 tanks
C Squadron 20 tanksAttached to HQ Troop were 4 Artillery Observation tanks
In all some 83 tanks.Wittmann engaged at most 2 Stuarts from Recce Troop, 4 RHQ tanks and 2 OP tanks and possibly the rearmost A Squadron Firefly.
9 Tanks in total4th CLY lost 25 tanks from the original 83 so any claim Wittmann (or anyone) 'wiped out ’ the whole Regiment is absurd
@aequitas:
FROM “ACHTUNG PANZER” allready translated (this saved my job)
The whole account is riddled with errors. Find a better source. Wiki is much more accurate.
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@aequitas:
On June 13th of 1944, Wittmann�s company destroyed entire 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment travelling on the road No.175 to Villers-Bocage, at the Hill No.213.
No he did not.
4th County Of London Yeomanry consisted of:
RHQ Troop   4 Tanks
Recce troop  11 Stuart tanks
AA Troop    4 Tanks
A Squadron  20 tanks
B Squadron  20 tanks
C Squadron  20 tanksAttached to HQ Troop were 4 Artillery Observation tanks
In all some 83 tanks.Wittmann engaged at most 2 Stuarts from Recce Troop, 4 RHQ tanks and 2 OP tanks and possibly the rearmost A Squadron Firefly.
11 Tanks in total4th CLY lost 25 tanks from the original 83 so any claim Wittmann (or anyone) 'wiped out ’ the whole Regiment is absurd
@aequitas:
FROM “ACHTUNG PANZER” allready translated (this saved my job)
The whole account is riddled with errors. Find a better source. Wiki is much more accurate.
What’s your source Dr. Lazarus?
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What’s your source Dr. Lazarus?
Gar, it’s called having an imagination, duh! Don’t you remember having one of those?
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What’s your source Dr. Lazarus?
Simple geography. The position of every tank wreck is known as is the route Wittmann took into the town.
Wittmann could not possibly knock out any more than the 9 tanks on that road that came into his direct sight.
Between Wittmann and A Squadron there was a large hill (pt 213) so they never came into contact. -
What’s your source Dr. Lazarus?
Simple geography. The position of every tank wreck is known as is the route Wittmann took into the town.
Wittmann could not possibly knock out any more than the 9 tanks on that road that came into his direct sight.
Between Wittmann and A Squadron there was a large hill (pt 213) so they never came into contact.Based on what Book? Historian? Web-site? or other?
I’d like to review the material.
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Wittmann got on to the RN 175 road at Les Haut Vents which is at 185 mtrs, some 28 mtrs below the peak of Pt 213 1200 mtrs (Yellow X)to the right.
He turned left into Villers Bocage and it is probable he first fired at and hit the Firefly tank ‘Blondie’ shown below. Wittmanns own account given just after the action mentions only that he fired at 2 tanks to his left before he turned right into Villers where he was knocked out.
Note the crest of Pt 213 in the distance and the complete absence of any other tank wrecks on the road. Blondie is the only one. . A Squadron were on the other side of the hill.
The 6 wrecked tanks (2 Recce Stuarts and 4 RHQ Cromwells) are at the entrance to the town of Villers Bocage
Villers bocage is in a depression some 100 mtrs below Pt 213.
A Squadron were over the crest and on the other side of Pt 213.The Wiki article on Villers Bocage is the most accurate account on the web.
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Simple geography. The position of every tank wreck is known as is the route Wittmann took into the town.
Wittmann could not possibly knock out any more than the 9 tanks on that road that came into his direct sight.
Between Wittmann and A Squadron there was a large hill (pt 213) so they never came into contact.Thats right, HILLS! The tanks greatest obstacle, because it’s not like a tank could, ya’know, drive over it or something. One must wonder how the Tank gained such prominence on the battle field with this huge weakness :roll:
Come on Gar, have you forgotten the ROT (Rule of Thumb) when dealing with Lazarus posts? Remember, whatever he says, the opposite is what really happened.
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@aequitas:
On June 13th of 1944, Wittmann�s company destroyed entire 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment travelling on the road No.175 to Villers-Bocage, at the Hill No.213.
HE WHO IS ABLE TO READ GOTS THE UPPER HAND!!
It says: Wittmann’s Company…
hätte es vielleicht doch in deutsch schreiben sollen!
should have written it in german!And regarding sources dear Lazarus, Achtung Panzer is a German source, wiki is not a source it´s more a plattform where everybody could fill in the blanks what he might fits into. I ´ll see if i can get any SIGNAL source or of former members of the CLY or the 22nd Regiment…but allways read with caution, in the end it is all self interpretation.
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@aequitas:
@aequitas:
On June 13th of 1944, Wittmann�s company destroyed entire 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment travelling on the road No.175 to Villers-Bocage, at the Hill No.213.
HE WHO IS ABLE TO READ GOTS THE UPPER HAND!!
It says: Wittmann’s Company…
hätte es vielleicht doch in deutsch schreiben sollen!
should have written it in german!Write it in Greek if you prefer but it wont change the fact it is wrong.
Neither Wittmann, his entire company, 1st kp, or Pz Lehr came even close to destroying 4th CLY.@aequitas:
And regarding sources dear Lazarus, Achtung Panzer is a German source, wiki is not a source it´s more a plattform where everybody could fill in the blanks what he might fits into. I ´ll see if i can get any SIGNAL source or of former members of the CLY or the 22nd Regiment…but allways read with caution, in the end it is all self interpretation.
Atchung Panzer is full of errors. You would have to be really desperate to rely on it as any kind of source.
I have checked the Wiki page on Villers and it is by far the most accurate account on the net.
Signal magazine had an article on Villers Bocage but some of the photos it used were not taken at Villers Bocage and one photo was faked to make the destruction look worse than it was.
You can find the War Diary and Regimental Magazine for 4th CLY online but they were in 22nd Armoured Brigade not 22nd Regiment. -
Dear Lazarus, my apologies for mixing Brigade with Regiment up, my bad.
I leave it to this ,that I let have you, your opinion and that I got my view of the events based on what we know and learned from the past.
I also learned ,even when we think we are right ,that one time we all gonna see that we haven´t been right at all and in anything, it all was about to just make the right choices.That said I agree with you to disagree and leave it totally up to you what ever you are going to do with it.
I put allready out the fact what Wittmanns intension was and don’t wanna fight about numbers and hills.
sincerley AeV… -
@aequitas:
I leave it to this ,that I let have you, your opinion and that I got my view of the events based on what we know and learned from the past.
Opinion has no impact on the facts.
It is really simple.
Wittmann drove on to the RN 175 road from Villers Bocage to Caen.
He had 2 choices.
A)Turn right to Pt 213.
B)Turn left and go into Villers Bocage
He chose ‘B’ the road into Villers.
Thus he drove away from A Squadron and what is more A Squadron was out of sight behind pt 213.
Wittmann did not even know they were there.Whilst in Villers Wittmann’s Tiger was knocked out. He was in action a total of perhaps 15 mins and never got anywhere near the location of A Squadron 4th CLY.
Despite this he is credited with the destruction of all the tanks in A Squadron. He was given a medal that says he knocked out 20+ tanks when he could not possibly have hit more than 9.
The German kill confirmation system was either seriously flawed or totally bogus.
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I just read this on the Wiki source
Carlo D’Este views Wittmann’s attack as “one of the most amazing engagements in the history of armoured warfare”;[201] Max Hastings calls it “one of the most devastating single-handed actions of the war”;[73] and Antony Beevor claims it was “one of the most devastating ambushes in British military history”.[202] Hubert Meyer goes even further, attributing Operation Perch’s failure solely to Wittmann’s “courage, his tactical and technical abilities and […] the valor, the expertise and the camaraderie of his Panzer crew”.[203]
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