Tigerman's Barbarossa Game now at HBG

[Tigerman77]

On the IC rule. Russia loses 5 ipcs per IC lost but the Axis do NOT get an increase of 5 ipcs per. I should have made that more clear.

[Tigerman77]

Along with the next rule revision I will update the new advanced setup charts.

[Koningstiger]

Hi,

I have some more questions regarding the latest version of the rules posted on BGG (27 September 2014):

1.) In the section on the Pripet marhes it says that the defending units get -2 to their defense values. Shouldn’t this be the attacker (or perhaps the - should be a +)? It doesn’t really make sense to me, so I wonder if this is perhaps an error.

2.) In the section on aircraft, the first bit of text in bold says that aircraft that are not medium or heavy bombers do not return to a friendly area during non-combat. however, this is contradicted later on when e.g. fighters are discussed separately. here it says that they must return to a space that has been friendly controlled for at least a full turn during NCM. Which of the two is it?

Thanks!

[Koningstiger]

Finally got to play this game for the first time yesterday and here’s a shortlist of my initial impressions along with another highly important question regarding the rules.

Pros:

• I love the way supply has been incorporated into the system! It also greatly promotes attacking enemy stacks of these with SBR’s which is also historically accurate. At the beginning of Barbarossa the Luftwaffe cut Soviet communications effectively and in this way denied possible strong Soviet counter-attacks.

• Personally I really like all the unit variety this game provides in the advanced set-up

• The slight deviation of A&A rules here and there allows for interesting developments on the battlefield; e.g. having your opponent counter-attack BEFORE you can strengthen your positions during NCM causes an interesting twist.

Cons:

• The game is incredibly time consuming to set up. Set-up and cleaning things up took me about 3 1/2 hours between them. While I actually enjoy setting up a game and seeing the forces assemble little by little, I just don’t have the time usually to spend so much time on it. Game-play itself is also very time-consuming due to the large variety and quantity of units etc. We only managed to finish the first turn, that is up to and including combat for both sides.

• I’ve had to make my own battleboard as it doesn’t come with the game and it’s really a must!

• At set-up at least, it’s hard to keep a good overview of the units as spaces are clearly too crowded, let alone when you move them into enemy territory.

• To be able to play, it requires a very hefty financial investment to get all the units and the map. Not necessarily a problem to me, but then you do expect an all but flawless game in all respects.

• When looking at HBG’s site it seems the game is still under constant development. While this in itself is good, why would one want to buy it now, if apparently it’s not truly finished? At the site there’s also a picture of a battleboard for the game which contains entirely new concepts to apparently incorporate tactical elements on the strategic scale of the game. While I would applaud such an addition, the problem is that version 5.0 of the rules makes no mention of these concepts whatsoever.

• Most importantly, the rule book clearly contradicts itself at times, leaves too much to interpretation at other times and changes seem to have been made between v 4.0 and 5.0 in some places while failing to update these in others (the aircraft landing or not landing during NCM , for example).

In sum, we felt the game holds a lot of potential, but actually still has too many teething problems to justify its cost in both time and money. We will, however, give it another try when the questions we have get cleared up.

One further highly importnat question:

• Can unit engange in combat twice through blitzing? It’s unclear whether the two forms of blitzing are meant to include A&A’s normal form of blitzing (engaging the enemy after moving through an unoccupied enemy zone) or whether, as the blitz phase comes AFTER the combat phase, units can move through an unoccupied enemy zone in the blitz phase (as well) to attack enemy forces (again). Please clarify!

[Koningstiger]

Been reading all these posts and it seems the Russians are winning most of the time. If so, here’s some suggestions for the developers to consider:

1. There seems to be no penalty for the Russians on turn 1, whereas they were caught off guard. Here’s two suggestions of which I personally prefer the first (or even both):

A Allow Axis units to blitz across rivers on turn 1 (only)
B Apply a -2 penalty on all defensive values for the Russians for the first round of combat or even for the entire turn.

Also been wondering why the Russians get the Siberian reinforcements for the remainder of the game. In actuality, while their impact was big in the battle of Moscow, I’ve always understood their relative numbers were small. So perhaps to better balance the game in favor of the Germans, the Siberian reinforcements could apply to 1 or 2 turns only.

Keep up the good work!

[Tigerman77]

1…this is not an error but you may have a valid point.

2…Aircraft (Attack/Defend/Movement/Cost)

Aircraft used in general combat, but not used in Strategic Bombing Raids (SBR), move and fight but do not return to a friendly zone until the NCM movement.

Simply stated the planes on SBR bomb then return to base. Aircraft used in general combat do not get to return until the NCM phase.

[Koningstiger]

For the Pripet marshes I used the house rule that the attacker (rather than the defender) gets -2 to their attack rolls; the defender defends normally.

Thanks for the answers!

[Koningstiger]

Perhaps this question got buried a bit among the other ones, but it’s pretty important:

Can units attack twice in a turn (once in regular combat) and again during blitzing? The rules are a bit ambiguous in that aspect.

Thanks!

[Tigerman77]

Is anyone interested in alternate setups of this game?  Maybe a 42,43,&44 setup!

[Witt]

44 please. I love the final battles and Germany abandoned by its allies, fighting  with its back to the wall.

[Koningstiger]

Sure, I’d be interested. Tigerman, have you had the chance to have another look at the blitzing rules? Personally I’d allow both sides (not just the one holding initiative, as you suggested) to attack another defended area [apart from the “regular” A&A rule that it may move into an unoccupied enemy controlled area after a successful battle], thereby allowing both sides to attack twice, basically. Once on their normal combat and then potentially again in a blitz attack. For the attacker the benefit is obvious, for the defender I really feel it helps keep the attacker honest.

What do you think?

[Tigerman77]

@Koningstiger:

Sure, I’d be interested. Tigerman, have you had the chance to have another look at the blitzing rules? Personally I’d allow both sides (not just the one holding initiative, as you suggested) to attack another defended area [apart from the “regular” A&A rule that it may move into an unoccupied enemy controlled area after a successful battle], thereby allowing both sides to attack twice, basically. Once on their normal combat and then potentially again in a blitz attack. For the attacker the benefit is obvious, for the defender I really feel it helps keep the attacker honest.

What do you think?

Use it in your next game. Ill use try that in my next game also.

[Koningstiger]

OK, I will!

[Tigerman77]

As of right now, if my mind serves me correctly,  it is set up like Blitzing in a normal A&A game. Of course your idea sounds good also. If both sides are able to do this it may be advantageous to the Axis early on. IMHO Germany could use the help.

In our games if Leningrad doesnt fall Russia will win. IF Germany can take Leningrad they have a good shot of at least winning by points.

[ch0senfktard]

When it snows, do rain rules still apply?
I.E. are planes restricted movement to airbases only and all land units move at 1 when it snows?

Also, I notice that the new set up has Russian trains on the border, allowing Germany to capture them.
Is this intentional?

[General 6 Stars]

@ch0senfktard:

When it snows, do rain rules still apply?

NO

I.E. are planes restricted movement to airbases only and all land units move at 1 when it snows?

*SNOW- All supply costs double for this turn. Rivers can be crossed with no attack penalty.
So your answer is NO.

Also, I notice that the new set up has Russian trains on the border, allowing Germany to capture them.
Is this intentional?

If It’s in the setup then your answer is Yes there on the border.

You download the rules ? All that’s in there.

[ch0senfktard]

Yeah, I have the rules printed out.
Got the graphic PDF rules printed out like a sort of high quality magazine, it looks pretty nice.

Its just that people argue semantics about the rules because it Doesnt say that rain rules don’t apply to snow, so yeah.
Its not fun when most of the game is spent arguing about rules.
We know what the Snow rules are, they were just questioning if Snow effects were in addition to Rain effects.

And about the trains, it just seemed a little odd to give Germany such a boost is all.
Guess Russia was too powerful in previous versions.
(Which was another argument >.> …)

[General 6 Stars]

Ya There was a few rule versions.

Been awhile but we ended up taking away some of the snow effects in certain turns. Don’t have chart in front of me. Something like turn 4 or 5. In each weather turn on chart remove some of the snows from chart and make them good. Always seemed the snow really slowed down the Germans in game.

Do you use the Advantage Charts with a deck of cards in game ?

I do have IL’s Eastern Front map and rules game for a long time. It just was brought up in the Other Variants and Games thread. Tigerman’s game game out and I decided to play that one. But I am going to get the Eastern Front map printed Thursday and start playing that game. Seems to be way more simpilified. Let me know if you play it.

[ch0senfktard]

I’ve only played with Murphy’s Law rules once.
Not sure what to say about it, that was quite a while ago.

I don’t have IL’s Eastern Front map.

[VictoryFirst]

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