Allied bid placement strategies

[Violent.copper]

Also just thinking out loud I HAVE NEVER TRIED THIS OR SEEN IT DONE….

if you go the dd route you may not even need a bid in egypt… if you place the DD off the coast of india(sz 35)…the japs can only send two fighters at 35 round one thats vs two dd’s and a transport(i know they don’t defend but if it lives it gives you counter strikes) thats a 61-64% chance of winning for the japs… but if you lose as the japs that means a DD may have lived and forsure a trannie, thus allowing indian units to board and hit egypt or take back borneo/east indies and if a DD lived kill a jap trannie…again thats not how I use my bid but just some options and things to consider also i would most likely only use this bid in dice because in a LL game egypt is a given with at the VERY least a bomber if no bid is placed in it

[Jennifer]

Why would 2 submarines in SZ 63 be illegal?  Just because it can be devastating?

Not sure if I’d ever get a bid higher than 7 - to be honest, just because 8 gets into the destroyer range.  Personally, I am leaning towards Egypt due to the money in Africa, but I could see units going into Russian territories as well…make them pay for taking stuff.  Few infantry in Belarus or a couple artillery could be productive in counter attacking the Germans.

[Violent.copper]

Triple A bid rulesVVVVVVVVVV

"No bomber purchases are allowed for this game and bid combination

These IPCs may be spent on units to be placed on the board prior to game start. The IPC may be split by the allies in any way. The first restriction is that no more than one unit may be placed per territory. Naval units must go into a sea zone with existing Naval units of the same nation. Placement of naval units in empty sea zones or placement of, for example, British units with American units (and vice versa) is not allowed. Similiarly, ground/air units must be placed in the territories controlled by the same nation. However, ground units may be placed in territories that have no existing ground/air units.

Unspent IPC’s from the bid can be divided up between the Allies for spending in future turns as the Allied player desires."

That’s why it is illegal.

what I found from .org tournament rulesVVVV
"You will be bidding for the Allies.
Full placement bids.  Standard bid rules apply (can only place bid in spots where you already have units, etc.)
You will bid in IPC, but you can spend the bid on units once bidding is completed.
Bidding will be done in an Auction Style to keep everything in house.
Once brackets are assigned I (or another mod) will do a random roll for each round to see which player will start the bidding (either top player on bracket or bottom).  The players will then bid down until one player concedes the sides.

Example
Player 1 - I’ll play the Allies with 9
Player 2 - I’ll play the Allies with 7
Player 1 - I’ll play the Allies with 6
Player 2 - You win, you can take the Allies with 6"

since no units of your power start in the pacific as russia it is illegal in triple A, and by the looks of it same with on here…

if you only get 7 dollars, you are forsure playing dice… If you think 7 is enough when the dard is open (sz 16) then thats your prefernce, i won’t argue, i have seen plenty of games where the bid is higher than 7, but as of the guidelines to this post a destroyer bid is possible…agian not saying I would do it or that it is the right thing to do just pointing out the options, saving sz 2? saving 12? saving 35? who knows, but I feel that was the point of this post was to discuss possibilites and not every game counts so if you want to get ridiculous place a crazy bid, you still will have a fun game.

[Jennifer]

I guess.  It’s been a while since I played hot and heavy with Anniversary, but I am loathe to give my opponent more than 2 units!

[DarthMaximus]

For forum games here:

A bomber bid to Bry is legal.  (since russia has units there)
Russian subs are not.  (no russian ships in Pac)

@Cmdr:

I guess.  It’s been a while since I played hot and heavy with Anniversary, but I am loathe to give my opponent more than 2 units!

It may take you a few games to get back into the swing.  But I’m guessing, 7 probably won’t be enough unless you really like playing the Allies.

8-11 seems standard right now.  But there have been quite a few with 12+ depending on who you play.

[Amon-Sul]

if i get it good it is illegal to place units in the territory and sz where your nation already do not have any units right?

[gamerman01]

For A&A.org:
Units must be joining unit(s) of the same power, and must be put on a territory controlled by the power (relevant for 1942 scenario).

So Germany can’t place units on Libya in 1942 and USA can’t put units on Great Britain.
DD blocking in Z8 and Russian subs in Pacific are not allowed (as Darth said) because there are no UK units in Z8 and no Russian units anywhere in the Pacific at game start.

Russian bomber on Bry to sink destroyer at 51 plus 2 transports is very risky. I would never do it against good competition. There is only a 57% chance the bomber sinks everything and survives. There is a 29% chance you trade the bomber for the destroyer. There is a 14.3% chance you lose and don’t sink the destroyer. Any part of the 43% is a horrible failure for your 12 bid, and you have no help in Egypt or Russia or the Atlantic.

Bids are over-rated, more often than not. Unlike Jenn, I have no problem allowing more than 2 units. I gave a bid of 19 to a very worthy opponent, and he took fighter to Bry (free sink of transport and fighter for rest of game like Zhuk said) and 3 infantry to Egypt (he could have added SIX units!). It’s now round 15, and I think it’s been a lock for my Axis for a couple of rounds now.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=24311.600

As Darth said, bids greater than 12 can be appropriate, depending on the players. In my experience, what happens with the dice on round 1 far outweighs any puny little bid of 12 or less. Bids are a great way to agree on sides, and not much more.

To address the original question, I think all the obvious places are good.
Russian front but not in BSt, Ukr, or EPl.
Fighter to Bry
At LEAST one infantry to Egypt (I agree with Zhuk - go with 2 units or more to prevent disaster) As Axis, I will attack Egypt on G1 even with one extra infantry there. Hit and run and let the Italians clean up on I1. In round 2 of the tournament I did precisely that, and the Germans took it over with a tank and bomber remaining. Opening round dice always matter a lot more than a bid. I’ve seen so many bids completely negated by round 1 dice or be rendered useless.
Sub to 35 may or may not be very effective. Sometimes it is, sometimes not so much.
Have thought about destroyer to 12, but never done it or had it done against me. Would increase your chances of saving Z2, but if you don’t add anything to Egypt at the same time, you’re just asking the German player to paste Egypt and hit zone 12 hard, leaving Z2. Yes, you get to start with 2 transports and a battleship, but pretty much losing your bid and Egypt would not be pretty. Maybe if you got a 13 bid and put a destroyer in 12 and a tank in Egypt?

I put an infantry and tank in Egypt in my Semi-Finals tournament game against the great Yoshi, and he went after North Africa hard - transporting Germans there for a couple turns and keeping some German air south, chasing my enlarged Egypt force south for the rest of the game. So even 8 IPC’s added to Egypt don’t ensure you trap the Italian fleet in the Med. At this point I’m thinking I should have let him have the Allies at 9 or 11 or whatever. But then again, he was blessed with no disasters on the first round, and I had a huge disaster on R2 so that pretty much set the direction for the game. It’s in about round 8 - you can see it here: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=25806.240 So against a lesser opponent 8 may be ample for Egypt, but this game seems to indicate that 3-4 units in Egypt are not overkill.

[Amon-Sul]

good post gamer :)

i think the game will evolve in the future and that the bid will rise

[DarthMaximus]

I agree with Gamer that good/bad rd 1 dice can be more important than a bid, but I do think bids can be pretty influential.

Recently I’ve been doing more heavy Russian bids (only 1 unit to Egy).  Maybe I’m tempting fate by giving Ger the option to attack, but IMO its not a great risk for Ger so I’m fine with it.  And if I can get away with holding Egy with only 1 inf then great.  IMO, Europe is the bigger initial threat to the Allies, so I like to set up Russian counters and make sure Ger/Ita can’t set up the can-opener threat.

Actually let me expand on that a bit. 
1 inf to Egy is enough IF you have at least a 10 bid (1 inf, 1 rt to Russia).

I wouldn’t go 1 inf to Egy, if I only had 6, at that point you might as well just put 2 inf there.
That said, I’d never bid 6 nowadays.

If you are getting double digit bids, you can get away with 1 inf to Egy because you can put pressure more directly on the Axis elsewhere.  Which is why I like some variation of:

1 inf Egy, 2-3 units to Russia (bid range 10-14) to be placed on Bel and/or Euk.
You need at least 1 additional attacking unit for Russia (rt or arm) but I prefer two so I’ve been bidding 11+ for 2 rt to Russia 1 inf to Egy.  That said I’ll gladly take more.  :-)

In this case I’m perfectly okay with Ger taking the shot at Egy and if they don’t I saved Egy with minimal reinforcements.
The reason I’m okay with it is:
1)  I’ve been in games like the one Gamer describes with Yoshi, and it is much worse dealing with a larger Axis presence in Afr.  I’d rather have the troops thinned out and picking them off with the Safr/Trj/Per/Ind troops.  It seems regardless of bid to Egy (all units bid to Egy), if the Axis want North Afr they can probably have it.
2a)  It encourages Germany to use the bomber here and not in Sz 2
2b)  Perhaps forces a lighter attack on Sz 12 as well, maybe only two ftrs, so you should be able to kill at least 1 G ftr on G1
3)  If they don’t use the bomber, they risk some real bad losses.
4)  If Ita does clean up, I’d rather them have it then Ger, and I’d still have my Uk ftr and would killed the G trn.
5)  Finally, the worst case for Ger can be really bad - they bring the bom and get slaughtered in Egy (retreat planes) doing minimal damage, they lose Sz 2 (or fail to kill the trn) as a result and lose a ftr (or two) in Sz 12 really putting them on the defensive as they now have to deal with the Russian bid units and UK already with 2 trns.

The downside is as, Gamer points out, Ger gets lucky and takes it.
But what did you really lose?  1 extra inf.  Again, as Gamer points out round 1 dice rolls can have more of an impact and that 1 inf can be made up by any number of dice rolls throughout the game.  As long as the rest of your bid was well placed you’ll be fine.

That said I don’t think it is bad to place two (or more units) to Egy, I just prefer having additional help for Russia.

[Amon-Sul]

i agree with U DM. i would even say maybe nothing to egy and all to eastern front

[gamerman01]

Enjoyed the post, DM
Good points

[DarthMaximus]

Its good to know all the early butt kickings I took are starting to pay off.  :lol:

I think we’ll probably end up with 2 main schools of thought.  The Africa bid where you are placing 2-4+ units in Egy and the Europe bid where you go 2-3(4+) in Europe and maybe 1(0) in Afr.

I think both are solid, and really could depend on your preferred playing style and your opponent.

I think the naval or Pacific bids be a 3rd in terms of usage.

[axis_roll]

Combined with an early Allied assault on the Med navy, the heavy allied african bid can really slow Germany/Italy’s expansion.  Some players think it’s a bit costly, trading either USA planes or UK planes for the med fleet.  Keeping Italy from getting both her NO’s can make up for some of this sacrifice.

Allot depends on how well Russia is played as well, because if Germany’s all over Eastern Europe, Africa is a non-factor.

[Zhukov44]

DM I agree with your reasoning–you are fine placing only 1 inf in Egy.  That attack is only 40% for Germany and requires the use of their bomber, which means there will be a higher risk of failure in sz12 and sz2.  That deployment is just too risky and will benefit Allies on average.

There’s also an argument for omitting the inf and giving the entire bid to Russia, based on the theory that Germany shouldn’t be attacking Egy even without the bid unit.  The attack on Egy is only 75%, and it involves greater risk at sz2 and sz12.

So far I rarely have the guts to go without the Egy bid though, since I’m not comfortable risking the possibility that Germany could attack 2, 12, and Egy and succeed everywhere.

[gamerman01]

@Zhukov44:

So far I rarely have the guts to go without the Egy bid though, since I’m comfortable risking the possibility that Germany could attack 2, 12, and Egy and succeed everywhere.

Did you mean not comfortable?  You don’t want someone to succeed on 2, 12 and Egypt all at once, right?  :-)

[Guest]

There is only one way allies should bid in 41.
Bid should be:

inf egypt
rest goes to soviet, use it only against germany

No fishy bids against japan, no navy bid for uk, if axis knows what to do you have lost already. Germany will hit Karelia, Egypt, Baltic, EP and Ukraine on the same time, game over…

If anyone disagree ill show the move.

[Zhukov44]

@Gamerman01:

@Zhukov44:

So far I rarely have the guts to go without the Egy bid though, since I’m comfortable risking the possibility that Germany could attack 2, 12, and Egy and succeed everywhere.

Did you mean not comfortable?  You don’t want someone to succeed on 2, 12 and Egypt all at once, right?  :-)

Lol true that.

Expanding on this discussion……for a while some elite triplea players were in the habit of placing the entire bid in Russia (eg with the ll/nt ladder bid of 13, you buy inf 2 arm or 2 art arm and exert pressure on Germany early).  However, in a low luck game, that gives Germany a 90% chance of winning in Egy…too good to pass up imho.

It seems forgoing the bid placement in Egy was too costly for many and since then I’ve seen more placements of an inf in Egy plus 2 tanks in Russia then all bid units to Russia.

When it comes to dice games, I think there is a solid argument that hitting Egy is not a good idea even if there is no bid unit there…it’s a gambler’s play.  However for the Allies, forgoing that bid unit is also gamble…which doesn’t always pay off!

[gamerman01]

@Zhukov44:

When it comes to dice games, I think there is a solid argument that hitting Egy is not a good idea even if there is no bid unit there….it’s a gambler’s play.  However for the Allies, forgoing that bid unit is also gamble…which doesn’t always pay off!

TOTALLY agree with this!

[axis_roll]

@ErwinRommel:

There is only one way allies should bid in 41.
Bid should be:

inf egypt
rest goes to soviet, use it only against germany

No fishy bids against japan, no navy bid for uk, if axis knows what to do you have lost already. Germany will hit Karelia, Egypt, Baltic, EP and Ukraine on the same time, game over…

If anyone disagree ill show the move.

Sounds like more of a gambit to me, especially with the Karelia AAA being a huge variable.
Too many battles that can go wrong.  I’m sure when they all are successful, Germany wins easily.
How often does that happen?

Does Germany attack ANY UK shipping?

[gamerman01]

@axis_roll:

Sounds like more of a gambit to me, especially with the Karelia AAA being a huge variable.
Too many battles that can go wrong.  I’m sure when they all are successful, Germany wins easily.
How often does that happen?

Does Germany attack ANY UK shipping?

I was going to respond earlier, but thought I’d prefer if someone else weighed in on this one first.
I agree with axis_roll.  Attacking Karelia with everything available (except bomber which is going to Egypt) is a very aggressive move.  Sure, if all these battles work out well Germany would be in a great position.  But you can’t effectively attack the UK warships without any aircraft, and Karelia could be a disaster.  When you lose 2 or more planes there, it’s a major backfire.  Egypt is not a sure thing either.
Anyway, I do disagree, Erwin.  If I really want to make sure I win the game I will never attack Karelia on G1, and certainly not Karelia and Egypt at the same time.  When your 5 attacks work, you no doubt look like a genius.  But according to the odds, many times it will fail, and then you look incompetent, and might lose, too.
Enjoyed considering your idea, but no thanks.  There are reasons I have almost never seen anyone attack Karelia G1.  One of them is AA.  Another is reduced odds on BSt, EPl, and Ukr, Z6 (you have no air support).  If you lose one of them you lose the NO which would offset the one you get if you win in Karelia.  Another is no attack or less effective attack on Z2 and Z12.  If you don’t take down Russia fast, you will have severe issues with a powerful UK fleet with many transports.

Do you know how to play online?  :-)