1 fighter vs 1 AAA - what happens?

[aardvarkpepper]

Reading through the rules and errata, I think what should happen with 1 fighter attacking 1 AAA with no other units involved is:

AAA fires 1 shot at attacking fighter. Regardless of whether the fighter is destroyed or not, the AAA dies.

So it’s possible for the fighter and the AAA to both be destroyed. The fighter never needs to roll dice to see if it hits. Even if there were two AAA on a territory (and nothing else), the fighter could be shot down yet destroy both.

I don’t say I like it; it’s counter-intuitive (in any other situation an air unit shot down by AAA can’t do anything), but it’s due to the automatic destruction effect.

I think I read an old post on Larry Harris forums somewhere about automatic destruction - but it isn’t an official ruling (it’s not in the errata) and WotC doesn’t resolve rules questions.

Yes, I expect normally you wouldn’t have a lone AAA on a territory. The question is if you did, is that how it resolves? Is there some part in the rulebook that I missed, and if so, what’s the specific reference and page?

Page 25 “No Combat Value: It can, however, be taken as a casualty. If a territory containing AAA units and no combat units is attacked,
the AAA units are automatically destroyed. AAA units may never attack.
Air Defense: An Antiaircraft artillery (AAA) unit can fire only at an air unit when that unit attacks the territory containing
that AAA unit. AAA units fire only once, before the first round of combat”

(It all happens when “is attacked” and “attacks”. Since there’s no additional wording regarding the timing of effects, I see it as simultaneous, with the effect described above.)

[Witt]

@aardvarkpepper the AAA fires first . If it hits , it survives. If it fails to roll a 1, then Combat begins and the Ft kills it automatically, as the AAA has no defence roll.

[General 6 Stars]

@Witt said in 1 fighter vs 1 AAA - what happens?:

@aardvarkpepper the AAA fires first . If it hits , it survives. If it fails to roll a 1, then Combat begins and the Ft kills it automatically, as the AAA has no defence roll.

Are you looking for a rule for AAA defending or you just want to do what u said here ?

Killing an AAA gun should be done by a Tac and not a fig. but

[aardvarkpepper]

@Witt said in 1 fighter vs 1 AAA - what happens?:

@aardvarkpepper the AAA fires first . If it hits , it survives. If it fails to roll a 1, then Combat begins and the Ft kills it automatically, as the AAA has no defence roll.

That’s what I thought up until about a week ago when a question came up in another forum and I looked it up. A literal reading of the rules is the AAA and fighter CAN destroy each other because of the “automatically destroyed” special rule.

What I’m asking is if anyone knows of a specific official rules reference that I missed.

This is a 1942 2nd edition question - but the RESOLUTION affects 1942 Online, which is why I want the literal and correct rule. Julius Borosov recently wrote that the AAA gets destroyed and never even fires on the fighter.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/898920/discussions/0/2845669419715663297/

Well, even if we do get a pretty strong consensus on how the 1942.2 board game works, the developers of 1942 Online may still well not change anything, but I still want to know for my own reference for when I play on TripleA or IRL or whatever.

[Krieghund]

Witt is correct. The automatic destruction rule is the equivalent of the defenseless transport rule. There must be at least one attacking unit in order to trigger it. As AAA fires before the first round of combat (see page 24 of the Rulebook), if it hits all attacking air units and there are no attacking land units there will be no attacking units in the combat, and the AAA will not be destroyed.

[aardvarkpepper]

@Krieghund

I’m looking at a .pdf of “Axis and Allies Rulebook 1942 Second Edition”. The unit rules start on 24. I looked on page 24 but didn’t see anything relevant to AAA there. I found some rules on page 25. Could be we’re looking at different versions. Anyways I reproduced the quotes below.

"If a territory containing AAA units and no combat units is attacked,
the AAA units are automatically destroyed.
(snip)
For each “1” rolled, the attacker chooses one air unit as a casualty. These casualties are removed immediately, and will not participate in the remainder of the battle. This AAA attack is made immediately before normal combat occurs in the territory containing the AAA unit. "

Intuitively, I would agree with what you and Witt wrote. It’s how I thought it worked until a few days ago. But thanks to a post on Steam, I ended up looking up the literal rule and I was surprised. Please review the premises and reasoning below.

I consider “is attacked” and “attacks” the same action. Instead of “is attacked” I could write “when a unit attacks the AAA”. Instead of “can fire only at an air unit when that unit attacks”, I could write “when a territory an AAA is in is attacked”. (If you disagree please let me know).

If that IS correct - I don’t see any wording resolving the timing of the two effects. Nor do I see any blanket rule for automatic destruction that states it happens before or after.

If the trigger is “attacks”, I’m okay with that happening before the first round of combat. The rule defines it that way, so why not. But I’m saying the automatic destruction also properly happens before the first round of combat.

Automatic destruction isn’t normal combat. It’s a separate effect.

I think I read said something about automatic destruction effects being implemented to save on needless rolling - maybe on the Larry Harris forum. I don’t have the reference handy. But even if that’s the INTENT of the rule - it’s intuitive, it makes sense - it’s not what the literal rules say.

OR is there some official text somewhere (rulebook or errata) that Iiterally states that automatic destruction effects are supposed to only save on needless dice rolling? If there is, would you happen to have a reference?

I went up and down the 2nd edition rulebook and the errata, found nothing official.

The question is - what’s the OFFICIAL ruling? If it’s a matter of INTENT - that’s another matter.

Thanks!

[Krieghund]

@aardvarkpepper said in 1 fighter vs 1 AAA - what happens?:

I’m looking at a .pdf of ‘Axis & Allies Rulebook 1942 Second Edition’. The unit rules start on 24. I looked on page 24 but didn’t see anything relevant to AAA there. I found some rules on page 25. Could be we’re looking at different versions.

Yes, apparently the latest version of the Rulebook was not updated to the website.

I consider “is attacked” and “attacks” the same action. Instead of “is attacked” I could write “when a unit attacks the AAA”. Instead of “can fire only at an air unit when that unit attacks”, I could write “when a territory an AAA is in is attacked”. (If you disagree please let me know).

I agree. “Attack” is a term that is not precisely defined in the rules, but can be assumed through the context of its use to mean “make a combat move against a space, resulting in combat”. It is during this combat that units are eliminated, whether automatically or not.

If that IS correct - I don’t see any wording resolving the timing of the two effects. Nor do I see any blanket rule for automatic destruction that states it happens before or after.

Correct, there is no such blanket rule.

If the trigger is “attacks”, I’m okay with that happening before the first round of combat. The rule defines it that way, so why not. But I’m saying the automatic destruction also properly happens before the first round of combat.

Automatic destruction isn’t normal combat. It’s a separate effect.

That is incorrect. There are only two instances of automatic destruction of units in the game (three if you count naval units’ cargo being destroyed along with them) - transports and AAA. The former is explicitly defined as equivalent to combat in the “Defenseless Transports” sidebar. It would be logical to assume that the same applies to AAA, and in fact I know that it does.

I think I read said something about automatic destruction effects being implemented to save on needless rolling - maybe on the Larry Harris forum. I don’t have the reference handy. But even if that’s the INTENT of the rule - it’s intuitive, it makes sense - it’s not what the literal rules say.

OR is there some official text somewhere (rulebook or errata) that Iiterally states that automatic destruction effects are supposed to only save on needless dice rolling? If there is, would you happen to have a reference?

I went up and down the 2nd edition rulebook and the errata, found nothing official.

Both the “Defenseless Transports” sidebar and the FAQ mention prevention of unnecessary dice rolling as being the purpose of automatic destruction as regards to transports. Extending this concept to AAA is only logical.

The question is - what’s the OFFICIAL ruling? If it’s a matter of INTENT - that’s another matter.

The official ruling is that combat must be initiated with AAA and there must be a unit capable of hitting it during a combat round in order to destroy it. While there is no direct quote in the rules or FAQ that I can give you to support this ruling, it is obviously in line with the way automatic destruction of transports works. In addition, it makes logical sense from the perspective that AAA always fire in combat before attacking air units do, so they should get the chance to defend themselves, even if alone.

I concede that a little “reading between the lines” needs to be done to arrive at this ruling, but it does make logical sense within the context of the rules for combat, and it conforms to the procedure for automatic destruction of transports. To treat AAA differently than transports in this regard would be to create a rules exception that simply doesn’t make sense, from either a game play or “realism” perspective.

[aardvarkpepper]

@Krieghund Thanks. I’ll cite the “Defenseless Transports” on page 17 (for me), when making the case to the 1942 Online developers. Appreciate your taking the time to input, and especially the specific reference - most helpful.

I’m just as pleased that the AAA can shoot down the fighter before the fighter can get any automatic destruction effect. Simultaneous shoot-downs is weird.

Also thanks @Witt of course.