SS GEN changed to GEN MANSTEIN

[General 6 Stars]

Yo I was approached and ask to remove my SS GEN name to not include SS in name or refer it to like Super Subs but I’ll just go with what I have now. No problem here and my intent was never to offend anybody with it.
Cheers !

[Witt]

@GEN-MANSTEIN nice to have you with us , General.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@GEN-MANSTEIN said in SS GEN changed to GEN MANSTEIN:

Yo I was approached and ask to remove my SS GEN name to not include SS in name or refer it to like Super Subs but I’ll just go with what I have now. No problem here and my intent was never to offend anybody with it.
Cheers !

Really? Is our society so punk now that it is not allowed to reference anything in history that someone may take offense too? Was the SS a brutal and horrific force that committed multiple war crimes. Yes. Does that mean we should never reference the SS again? Not in my opinion. Erasing history means making the same mistakes again. I guess Genghis Khan would not be allowed either.

[Panther]

@AndrewAAGamer said in SS GEN changed to GEN MANSTEIN:

Does that mean we should never reference the SS again? Not in my opinion. Erasing history means making the same mistakes again.

Of course not. How do you come to think so?

What type of reference actually is a user name? A user name is a symbol rather than a reference. Choosing this organization as a user name might be (and comparable cases actually have been) interpreted as a statement rather than a substantial reference (though we know that it has not been in this special case).

No one forbids a critical reference, no one erases history.

For example you want to reference the SS in any context in any topic? Feel free to do so. All we ask is to respect the forum rules (as we do at any time).

[djensen]

First, I would like to echo @Panther’s thoughts on this. As usual, he is precise, fair, and to the point.

@AndrewAAGamer said in SS GEN changed to GEN MANSTEIN:

Really? Is our society so punk now that it is not allowed to reference anything in history that someone may take offense too? Was the SS a brutal and horrific force that committed multiple war crimes. Yes. Does that mean we should never reference the SS again?

No. In fact, we address this specifically in the update to the rules. The effort is to not erase history but prevent intentional or unintentional glorification of Nazis and their symbols. We’re not preventing discussion of the SS because we literally think it’s important the people understand what happened during WWII. Generally, an avatar and username are without context and without context, it’s glorification. (You can create a username with context and that’s also in the rules).

Again, I know for a fact it was not intentional to “glorify” anything by any of our members. Admittedly, the fault of this situation is more heavily on me because I didn’t consider these things more carefully over the years. We’ve always had implicit or explicit “no Nazi” rules but I didn’t consider the grey areas. The new rule addresses the grey areas. Finally, if this rule was in place since the beginning (and it should’ve been), then SS GEN would’ve been GEN MANSTEIN when he first signed up and there would be no issue.

---

Aside: society as a whole can’t be punk. Punk is a sub-culture, characterized by anti-establishment. A punk society is a bit of a paradox. :wink:

[AndrewAAGamer]

Thank you both for your replies. I appreciate the open discussion versus a dogmatic enforcement that seems to be pervading the American Society today.

The SS were most responsible for the bulk of war crimes during World War II on the German side. They were Hitler’s racial enforcement police, they fought like the regular army (though not as well and more brutally) and ran the death camps. The SS name alone came to evoke fear in the general populace for not how hard they fought but for the massive and unending horrific murdering they did. The fear they invoked is what the SS means in a username. Just like how Genghis Khan and Attila the Hun evoked fear in their enemies; or heck even The Immortals!

This is a wargaming site. Picking a username that evokes fear in your Opponent as a merciless Commander seems to be appropriate. Especially when it is just a title and not a specific person. It is not like he is calling himself Hitler or Himmler.

As for punk it has many meanings. From the “Free Dictionary” site I am using the 3rd example.
a. An often aggressive or violent young person: The building was set on fire by a bunch of punks.
b. An inexperienced young person: We don’t want that little punk tagging along.
c. A cowardly or weak young person: Don’t let him disrespect you—show him you’re not a punk.

[djensen]

@AndrewAAGamer said in SS GEN changed to GEN MANSTEIN:

As for punk it has many meanings. From the “Free Dictionary” site I am using the 3rd example.
a. An often aggressive or violent young person: The building was set on fire by a bunch of punks.
b. An inexperienced young person: We don’t want that little punk tagging along.
c. A cowardly or weak young person: Don’t let him disrespect you—show him you’re not a punk.

Lol, I know. Just trying to keep it lighthearted in here with such a deep topic.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@djensen said in SS GEN changed to GEN MANSTEIN:

Lol, I know. Just trying to keep it lighthearted in here with such a deep topic.

Ahh, missed the humor there. I guess in that way I am a bit like Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory.

Though the need for humor in a deep discussion I guess is what I am talking about. We all should be able to talk about facts and history and not get emotionally charged about it. History is a great learning tool and without understanding history one can not understand how and why society is as it is today and the possible consequences of any action. Though I am sure almost everyone on this site does know history because of the games we play. It is a natural development of such.

[djensen]

@AndrewAAGamer said in SS GEN changed to GEN MANSTEIN:

This is a wargaming site. Picking a username that evokes fear in your Opponent as a merciless Commander seems to be appropriate. Especially when it is just a title and not a specific person. It is not like he is calling himself Hitler or Himmler.

You understand that context. Maybe a few others will understand that context. Now that you’ve explained the reasoning, I see what you’re going for but it cuts both ways.

“Fear me because I’ll crush you at gaming.”

But it can also mean “Fear me because …” well, really bad things. We don’t want to alienate any newcomers or existing members.

Ahh, missed the humor there.

I think this hits the point exactly. Somebody could be trying to be humorous but instead deeply offends somebody. @Gargantua does a good job of being humorous at times but sometimes it crossed the line and people got upset. Thus his humor evolved over time because the last thing he wants is fewer players in this community.

[Gargantua]

This post is deleted!

[AndrewAAGamer]

This post is deleted!

[Karl7]

Wait… was someone really offended or was this just the moderator(s) bringing down the hammer?

[djensen]

@Gargantua said in SS GEN changed to GEN MANSTEIN:

So what’s next though and when are the lines crossed. This will get stupid and out of control quickly.

@Panther and I won’t let it get out of hand. People just need to ask, “is this okay?” And if it’s not we can work to find something that does work.

However, it’s also at my personal discretion and can be arbitrary. I prefer not to be arbitrary but sometimes I might be, especially when something is happening that I don’t like. Like when we had to get rid of the politics forums. Thar produced so much traffic to the site but I just didn’t want the BS around it, it’s not why I created this site.

Or Djensen for doing NOTHING about these kinds of offensive names for 20 years on his website?

We’ve always had some implicit or, later, explicit rules to handle this. I was lacking empathy by thinking that everybody would understand that using something like SS was with military/gaming context and not the hateful evil that it also encompassed. For some folks, it can be impossible to separate the two and we should be thoughtful of that. We don’t have to walk on eggshells, just think about how words and symbols affect people who have different experiences than you or me.

I think how this case was INITIALLY handled was the right method.

That’s basically what happened and that’s how we’ll continue to handle it. Now we just have clarifications on the existing rules so that we don’t forget what we decided. It’s also a signal to 4chan racists, stay the f*** away from this forum; because we’re about Axis & Allies first and foremost. Secondarily, WWII history as it relates to the game (sometimes).

Rebel General

… is okay with the right context. :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing: (It’s a Star Wars reference, oh man, I hope you all got that)

[djensen]

@Karl7 said in SS GEN changed to GEN MANSTEIN:

Wait… was someone really offended or was this just the moderator(s) bringing down the hammer?

Offended might be strong. Concerned is more accurate. But it’s also “the [admin] bringing down the hammer.” ;-)

[Karl7]

This post is deleted!

[AndrewAAGamer]

This post is deleted!

[AndrewAAGamer]

This post is deleted!

[djensen]

I wrote out a big long post; I replaced it with this.

• I should’ve locked the thread after my last post.
• I don’t have time to keep addressing each nuance or what the rules will or will not cover; including the last comments which I should address but it’ll just drag everything on and on and on. And it’s not a terrible conversation but it’s a looong one – I’d rather be playing board games!! :game_die: :game_die:
• Some of these comments almost crossing the line so it’s best to just stop it.

@AndrewAAGamer @Karl7 I"m going to delete all the posts up until my last one and lock the thread.

The main takeaway I want everybody to have is just be empathetic and kind to your fellow humans.

If you have more questions on the subject, please feel free to DM me or @Panther.

[djensen]

Unlocked for @GEN-MANSTEIN only please. (Then I’ll lock it again).

[Gargantua]

Gen-manstien gen-Manstien Gen MANSTIEEEEEN!!!

(Muffled censorship)