League General Discussion Thread

[jim010]

Hey Karl. No love for OOB?

[Karl7]

@jim010 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Hey Karl. No love for OOB?

I play it sometimes so there is still love

[gamerman01]

My understanding of the purpose of the league:

A way to play A&A with a large group of players that you become somewhat familiar with
A way to have an official record of your games accumulate so you can see where you stand among your fellow A&A fans
A way to find games with players who you can size up (know their skill level) even without knowing them
A way to measure your progress as you get better at A&A
An organization that keeps players together so you can play certain players repeatedly over months/years of time

There’s probably more, that’s just off top of my head

[jim010]

Hey Gamerman. I have no issues with how you run the league. All good with me.

[surfer]

Just my $0.02. I was on a path to work up the ladder then work got in the way in 2019…so here I’m am again in 2020. Mostly I like the league scoring and it is a very strong indicator of the system’s validity that the best players are the highest rated players each year. So let’s not muck with the system too much.

The main detractor is that it significantly penalizes top-tier players from playing anyone less. I saw this first hand as I was waiting to play and top-tier players were not willing to damage their scores–I get it.

The suggestion that you play low-vs-high tier games in the non-league forum has some merit, but 2 cons:
a) It’s not a league game so the desire to win is not as great
b) These games take alot of time to play, especially if you want to have 8+ games year and not interfere with real life (work, family, etc.) So I can’t imagine a top-tier player wanting to spend much time on games that don’t count. If you have the time, great go for it. Everyone else doesn’t (possible exception due to COVID-19…boo)

So what’s my suggested modification?
Allow 1 game between players 3+ tiers apart (M-2or3, or E-3) to count each year subject to the following adapted scoring:
a) For the higher ranked person
If they win, the game counts as being played towards the 8 games for playoff, but there is no score, i.e whatever their average was before the game, that’s their average after the game.
If they lose, the game counts but the loss is considered to a player 2 tiers lower than their level (M= loss to tier 1 = 2pts, E= loss to tier 2 = 1 pt).

b) For the lower ranked person.
Standard league scoring in effect.

Rationale:
The main goal here is purely personal–as a possibly upcoming new player, I’d like to see games against better players to improve my game. But also as @AndrewAAGamer said, its better for the league – as in making it more competitive, if everyone gets to learn from the better players. I think with this mod, if a higher player is looking for a new game, they will seriously consider playing lower ranked players.

I set the one game limit between any pair of players to allow more players to interact in the low-vs-high games. Every one may want a piece of the Master, and this way a few more might get the opportunity.

Caveat:
The current scoring algorithm constantly updates ranking based upon the wins/loses of your opponents. This could cause a problem in determining if a game should be a “normal” match or a high-low game once all games are tallied at the end of the year. There is also a possible ambiguous situation that could occur if a low ranked player gets “lucky”. viz. 2 players each play 8 games for the year. One was E tier the year before, the other had no record. The E-tier player plays 4 games against E level goes 2-2 (avg=5.00) and has 4 low tier games (Tier 3) that he wins – no score, but his average stays at 5.00 and he remains a solid E tier player. All good. Now the new player plays 4 games against Tier 3 and wins avg=4.00 and 4 games against tier E players. He a good player but lucky dice help him to 2-2 record. avg = 5.00. So his avg for the year is 4.5, which would also classify as E (barely), but would place him out of the top 8, no playoff, (based on 2019 results). Again, I think most everyone would be good with this.

Here’s the rub. For the algorithm, these players have identical records 2-2 vs E and 4-0 vs Tier 3. How to differentiate them? The solution would be to use the prior year’s rank to determine if you are playing a high-low game or normal scoring. This is also important to make this work because if a M-tier player was really on board with this and gave 4 games to new players, who at the time were Tier 2 or 3, but by the end of the year had worked their way into Tier 1 status. Suddenly, that player will see his avg change as those 4 games would now be (wins?) against 4 Tier 1 players under normal scoring rules (6pts). Might not really be a problem as only 2 people had 6.0+ avg for 2019, but I would not want to be the reason to muck up the higher orders.
Lastly, using last years ranking would simply coding the scoring. Quick check at records to see how to score, rather than iterative examination of everyone’s ranking.

Other constraints

[gamerman01]

Wow, you put a lot of thought into that and I read almost every word. I appreciate that effort.

I understand that as avid A&A players, you all are big time thinkers and don’t mind putting a lot of time into your endeavors. Always looking to improve things. That’s fine, just putting that out there.

A huge plus of the current system is that you can easily take any individual’s score and recalculate it to make sure it’s correct. It’s also already fairly complex, and adding little exceptions like this make it more complex.

I get it, some of you are fantasizing about the newcomer playing a tier M. Or even a tier 2 playing a tier M. I have a rebuttal to this, and I think it’s very, very strong, honestly.

As it stands now, a tier M gets 6 points for beating a tier 1, which is worth his time. A tier E gets 5 points for beating a tier 2, which also scores him 5 points which makes him a more solid tier E and works toward counting toward the 8 to be in the main playoff ( note that you do not need 8 games to play in the 2nd or 3rd playoff and only 8 players actually need the 8 games to play in the league championship playoff in January)

Now, apologies to my current opponent, Aequitas et veritas for the following, but is necessary for my rebuttal. He’s a very cool guy so I’m sure no offense will be taken.

Aequitas is a veteran of the site and has played a WHOPPING 86 games in the past 2 1/2 years. He’s a known quantity. Very known. He has averaged roughly 3.5, or a low tier 1 these 2 1/2 years. I have been off for over 2 years having played zero A&A. I accepted a challenge from AeV to have a fun game and knock a bunch of the rust off.

Now some of you will probably think I’m an insensitive jerk for this, but whatever. It’s just my honest opinion, and I guarantee you other top players of the site could look at our game and would 100% agree with me. Unfortunately, AeV has nearly 0 chance of winning our game, and this is only through J1. Again, no disrespect meant, AeV is a respected, well liked veteran of our league. But from my years of experience, I can assure you he has less than 1% chance of winning this game after J1. All I’ve done is make a scramble decision with the UK and moved a non-com R1. And don’t even talk about the dice - they would have to be uber extreme to matter.

I disagree with the 95% hypothetical of the chance a player has of winning against a player 2 tiers below him. I think it’s closer to 99%. A game between a Master and a tier 2 (which is a 3 tier difference, of course) isn’t just non-competitive. It’s pretty much a waste of time, league or no. It’s a bug against the windshield. I totally understand the sentiment of learning from better players. Trust me, a tier 3 could learn a lot from a game with a tier 2, and a tier 1 will learn a lot from a game with a tier 1 or a tier E. No need to play the Masters. Just look at their games if you want to learn from them.

You already can rapidly get a pretty decently accurate ranking if you play 3 games, unless you’re playing other unknown quantities. If I was new to this league, and I was pretty good at A&A, and I really wanted an accurate ranking because the PPG and ranking really mattered to me, then I’d challenge some tier E’s, 1’s, or 2’s, whoever will play me. You won’t have any trouble at all getting those games here. Guys like AeV play dozens per year. If you beat all 3, you’ll be a master. A 6.00 PPG. I think you guys are nitpicking, and your perceived problems aren’t even problems. There’s an answer to every one of them without changing the system, honestly.

[gamerman01]

With an “ELO” type system, doesn’t everyone start at 0 and have to play quite a few games to ever get to a high ranking? Like I illustrated in that last paragraph, here you can do it in 1 game. And get a full ranking with 3.

[akreider2]

@gamerman01 I’d be up for playing anyone at 100:1 odds (against me of course) for $100 if I lose, $10k if I win – escrowed. I might even do 50:1.

[gamerman01]

Yeah, but the master isn’t going to play you if he’d only win $100 from you if he could play someone else at 10:1 and win $1,000 for the same amount of effort.

[gamerman01]

Guys, if you’re not an E, a Master is absolutely taking candy from a baby. Shoot, Adam eats E’s for lunch.

[gamerman01]

On top of that, the 8 seed in the tournament always gets destroyed by the 1 seed, if I err not. The 8 seed is normally an E.

Absolutely no disrespect meant to anyone, I do like entertaining your points of view and ideas, and often they are quite entertaining. But from here at the top of the mountain, I also have the absolute prerogative to reject any and all ideas. But I will continue respecting you all unless you are toxic or mean, and we haven’t had any of those on the site for years, to my knowledge lol

[oysteilo]

@gamerman01 @surfer back to surfer’s suggestion. It’s not that bad if you allowed one game pr top tier player against a low/unranked player. I think it can be a neet addition to the ranking and s fair comptomize to silent the discussion.

@gamerman01 and if you are worried it will mess up your bookkeeping just have this game reporter at deg 31. Or make note at the name. It’s fairly easy to keep track of, isnt it?

[gamerman01]

OK, Oysteilo is a heavyweight. Yes, I thought about making a little notation, and no, it wouldn’t be a big problem, you’re right.

If for example, you Oysteilo, wanted to play a newcomer who was tier 3, I could count the game and not count the 4 points and make a notation. Until that player reaches 3 games and is probably no longer tier 3 any more. But then we need to define some more things, and I fear this opens a can of worms.

[oysteilo]

@oysteilo i hate that autocorrect when i try to write English with Norwegian keyboard

[gamerman01]

Now what would be the limits - they would all have to be defined. We’re not going there. I have a better idea. As you all could have all along, write me about your situation (I’m a high tier E trying to make the playoffs and this new guy wants to play me in league but I don’t want 4 points dropping my score, what can we do?) and I could make an exception for you. AD isn’t the only guy who gets exceptions. Then it wouldn’t even have to be limited to 1 game a year, a tier E or M could do several if he wants them to count toward 8 league games but not lower his score.

Now even with this exception, we’ll see how many tier E’s and M’s actually spend their time with newcomers.

[jim010]

Are the top leaguers wanting to rack up wins against new or rusty (like me) players?

Considering that there is no money on the table in a league game, seems like far too much is being read into the ranking system.

[gamerman01]

If I make a new rule like 1 game per year that you don’t get a score for, it’s one more thing for all league participants to learn about, and I think it could open the floodgates. Let me know when this hypothetical situation of a newcomer getting turned down for games happens. I never hear about it.

[gamerman01]

@jim010 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Are the top leaguers wanting to rack up wins against new or rusty (like me) players?

Considering that there is no money on the table in a league game, seems like far too much is being read into the ranking system.

No, top players want to have fun playing games, and can easily smash a tier 1 or E, they don’t need a 2 or 3 to get their jollies.

Thank you, well said. We are very analytical people, so we analyze everything to death.

[gamerman01]

Somebody help me remember - who was the guy AndrewAAGamer played that he said would normally be like a tier E but might never play 3 games? I could take a look at that.
Or he knew of someone else who played a guy who should be a tier E or something?

[jim010]

Reading a text can come across not in a way that was intended. I am not trying to sound condescending or the like. But with that being said, the league is all about bragging rights and nothing else, no? Otherwise everybody would be playing in the open games section for fun. I lost 3 straight in the league, and I’m out now. Want to play for fun and fine tune my tactics without the pressure of a humiliation for everyone to see in the rankings.