Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?

[Xlome_00]

I think that’s a good attempt like you said, but doesn’t seem possible against a moderately experienced UK player.

Almost feels like Sea Lion can only occur mid or late game when/if the UK player is occupied trying to take Norway/Finalnd/Karelia or securing Africa. Perhaps the best bet is to add a ship to your navy every 1-2 turns to prepare for a possible attempt at Sea Lion late in game…

[taamvan]

The 1941 setup is really busted. Couldn’t understand why the tournament bids and game seemed so even–its because they’re using the 1942 setup (bid +/- 6 about 50/50)

The UK can buy 4 fighters on turn 1–they’d have to make some pretty big mistakes to lose either london or moscow…we got to a 20+ bid for Axis (still a complete blowout for the allies with 8-9 german planes on the board ie dark skies) and then gave up and went back to other versions and setups

[axis_roll]

@taamvan said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:

The 1941 setup is really busted. …we got to a 20+ bid for Axis (still a complete blowout for the allies with 8-9 german planes on the board ie dark skies) and then gave up and went back to other versions and setups

Sorry, I am confused, Are you saying you have to give the AXIS $20 IPC’s to have a chance in the 1941 bid set-up?

[taamvan]

@axis_roll Yes sir, Even with 20 they have no chance whatsoever in the left hand (1941) setup The geometry of the AA50 board is 1 turn for UK planes to russia and 1 turn for USA ships to UK. Also france is worth 11$ so its quite worth fighting over.

In the other versions its a 3 power dogpile onto Russia but in AA50 1941 its a 3 power dogpile on Germany and because there are plenty of russian infantry and 2 layer of russian territories this is more than enough space time and bodies to ensure that moscow is no cakewalk and germany has only 2-3 pulses of tanks to try and overcome it

5 cost tanks russia buys 6
43 income UK buys 4 fighters

these units are way better than the lesser units in the absence of some alternative or special powers so the choice is too clear and simple

[axis_roll]

@taamvan said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:

@axis_roll Yes sir, Even with 20 they have no chance whatsoever in the left hand (1941) setup The geometry of the AA50 board is 1 turn for UK planes to russia and 1 turn for USA ships to UK. Also france is worth 11$ so its quite worth fighting over.

Hmm. I would LOVE an axis with a bid, let alone 4 tanks worth!

So Germany plays a defensive game in Europe after sinking most of the UK royal navy G1, gets what Africa money it can and lets Japan win the game. Japan also send 2-4 planes to Europe to help.

In the other versions its a 3 power dogpile onto Russia but in AA50 1941 its a 3 power dogpile on Germany and because there are plenty of russian infantry and 2 layer of russian territories this is more than enough space time and bodies to ensure that moscow is no cakewalk and germany has only 2-3 pulses of tanks to try and overcome it

5 cost tanks russia buys 6
43 income UK buys 4 fighters

these units are way better than the lesser units in the absence of some alternative or special powers so the choice is too clear and simple

Are you playing with National Objectives?
I hope not tech because that’s such a crap shoot… at least the out of the box tech rules

[General 6 Stars]

@axis_roll said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:

@taamvan said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:

@axis_roll Yes sir, Even with 20 they have no chance whatsoever in the left hand (1941) setup The geometry of the AA50 board is 1 turn for UK planes to russia and 1 turn for USA ships to UK. Also france is worth 11$ so its quite worth fighting over.

Hmm. I would LOVE an axis with a bid, let alone 4 tanks worth!

So Germany plays a defensive game in Europe after sinking most of the UK royal navy G1, gets what Africa money it can and lets Japan win the game. Japan also send 2-4 planes to Europe to help.

In the other versions its a 3 power dogpile onto Russia but in AA50 1941 its a 3 power dogpile on Germany and because there are plenty of russian infantry and 2 layer of russian territories this is more than enough space time and bodies to ensure that moscow is no cakewalk and germany has only 2-3 pulses of tanks to try and overcome it

5 cost tanks russia buys 6
43 income UK buys 4 fighters

these units are way better than the lesser units in the absence of some alternative or special powers so the choice is too clear and simple

Are you playing with National Objectives?
I hope not tech because that’s such a crap shoot… at least the out of the box tech rules

You want to see my tech chart ? I mean my game is 41 and have a 10 tech table. Not all techs good for some. We have had 16 tech in game and doesn’t unbalance it. At least you get it plus I have additional rules on tech tokens and a spy can steal tech one time in game. Just ideas if your interested in them.

[General 6 Stars]

https://www.axisandallies.org/uploads/_imported_attachments/migrated/614631_image3(3).png

We roll for 2 NAs per country for whole game. You can go to just 1 per game. Throw in tech. Nice spice changes to game.

[axis_roll]

@SS-GEN said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:

You want to see my tech chart ? I mean my game is 41 and have a 10 tech table. Not all techs good for some. We have had 16 tech in game and doesn’t unbalance it. At least you get it plus I have additional rules on tech tokens and a spy can steal tech one time in game. Just ideas if your interested in them.

Thank you for your offer. I have found when it comes to tech in any version of A&A, the differences in opinions about tech and how to ‘fix’ them vary greatly. And, might I add, none is more right than any other ‘system’.

Our Chicago rules has it’s own “Tech via a Point System” that we utilize

[General 6 Stars]

@axis_roll said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:

@SS-GEN said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:

You want to see my tech chart ? I mean my game is 41 and have a 10 tech table. Not all techs good for some. We have had 16 tech in game and doesn’t unbalance it. At least you get it plus I have additional rules on tech tokens and a spy can steal tech one time in game. Just ideas if your interested in them.

Thank you for your offer. I have found when it comes to tech in any version of A&A, the differences in opinions about tech and how to ‘fix’ them vary greatly. And, might I add, none is more right than any other ‘system’.

Our Chicago rules has it’s own “Tech via a Point System” that we utilize

Ok. Didn’t know if you had it in your rules. I know about the Chicago Rules. Take care.

[Xlome_00]

Well it’s official. I played someone over the weekend who pulled off Sealion on G1 for A&A Anniversary 1941 setup. I’m stunned.

He used all available aircraft, Cruiser bombardment and a Tank + Infantry on the transport after knocking out my destroyer in SZ 6 with his subs.

He got past the AAA gun, and rolled exceptionally well while I rolled exceptionally bad. It came down to his last tank after sacrificing 2 out 3 of his aircraft as casualties.

So there you have it. It is actually possible.

[axis_roll]

@Xlome_00 said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:

He used all available aircraft, Cruiser bombardment and a Tank + Infantry on the transport after knocking out my destroyer in SZ 6 with his subs.

Sorry to say, but your opponent had made an illegal move.

The cruiser would not be available for an offshore into UK. This is because the cruiser would have to conduct a combat move into SZ6 AFTER the subs have already conducted combat (clearing SZ6). The cruiser can only be involved in clearing SZ6.

[Xlome_00]

I thought you could pick which naval units you want to participate in each battle. So if for instance those subs would’ve NOT taken out the destroyer, than the Sealion invasion using the Cruiser would not have been able to take place…

Is there really a rule where you can’t partition which naval units take part in each phase of the battles?

[axis_roll]

@Xlome_00 said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:

I thought you could pick which naval units you want to participate in each battle. So if for instance those subs would’ve NOT taken out the destroyer, than the Sealion invasion using the Cruiser would not have been able to take place…

Is there really a rule where you can’t partition which naval units take part in each phase of the battles?

I thought I explained the reasoning behind why the cruiser can’t just sit and wait to do his offshore, because he would be moving into a battle after the conduct combat phase has occurred.

If the cruiser goes into SZ6 during combat movement, he is involved in the battle in that Sea Zone because it is occupied with enemy forces. He can not do both, fight the navy in SZ6 AND then offshore.

So a short answer to your question is, no, the navy can’t pick and choose what units fight which battle (ships vs offshore). You enter the SZ, you battle the enemy naval forces, no splitting your attack.

[Xlome_00]

Just checked the rulebook. Looks you are correct. My buddy accidentally cheated.

Well the good thing is that my teammate and I still beat him even after losing the UK on G1, ha!

[axis_roll]

@Xlome_00 said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:

Just checked the rulebook. Looks you are correct. My buddy accidentally cheated.

I am glad you were able to confirm this in the rules. You can then show this to your friend.

My odds calc that I use shows a 13% chance of a G1 sea lion win with the <illegal> cruiser offshore, losing all planes 7% of the time…

Without the cruiser, drops to about 7% win. Losing 3 planes G1 and forgoing many other key targets is not a good G1 plan, IMHO

Well the good thing is that my teammate and I still beat him even after losing the UK on G1, ha!

Funny that you should mention this, because in Revised, you can buy enough tech to have a good chance to get long range on G1, and conduct a sea lion G1. It seemed to us to be too costly for Germany as they would forgo a ground unit buy, and USA (or even UK) could retake UK, while Germany could not conduct another sea lion G2… assuming the russian player had half a brain.

[Xlome_00]

He ended up squandering that $43 from taking London on a Navy which just sat there the remainder of the game. That’s how we pulled it off.

[axis_roll]

@Xlome_00 said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:

He ended up squandering that $43 from taking London on a Navy which just sat there the remainder of the game. That’s how we pulled it off.

Where was Russia during all this? … on holiday?

[Xlome_00]

Russia picked its battles, knocking off small garrisons in Beloroussa and Eastern Ukraine which prevented him blitzing thru more tanks to take out Moscow.

He ended up making big attacks on Moscow twice, but he failed because he didn’t reinforce his front well enough even with all that money that came with taking London on G1. By the time he had enough to make a stronger attack on Moscow, UK and US were already doing the Polar Express and had taken France. Japan had weak rolls in China and not enough ground forces to threaten Moscow as well.

In addition, 5 US fighters landed in Moscow by that time.

Axis were done for.

[Argothair]

@xlome_00 Sea Lion is one of those attacks where the threat is mightier than the execution. If you buy a carrier for the Baltic Fleet on G1, that’s a reasonable purchase anyway to protect your supply lines to Norway/Finland/Leningrad/Baltics. If you move the German Med transport to the central Med, it is protected by the Italian fleet and can reinforce Libya, which is a reasonable move anyway. If you then bring the Italian fleet to take Gibraltar and retake Morocco, that helps score your NOs, so that’s a normal attack. So all of these preparatory moves can be done with minimal cost to the standard Axis war effort.

But then the American bomber cannot sink the German transport without landing in either Egypt (where it will die on a G2 Egypt attack) or Caucasus (where it spoils the Russian NO.)

If they leave your Med transport alive, you move it to Western Med on G2 where Italian fleet protects it again, build a second transport in Baltic on G2 plus an extra plane, and now you are threatening UK with 3 inf, 3 tank, 1 CA, 4 ftr, 1 bmr on a hypothetical G3 sea lion.

UK can of course defend against this, but they will have to build a fat infantry stack in London instead of factories, ships, or air power. This could cost them the Atlantic fleet or at least force them to retreat it back to Canada; if they built a factory in Africa / India, they might lose it because they cannot afford to build units there on a critical turn. Meanwhile those infantry in London will just sit there inefficiently for several turns because there are not enough transports to ship them anywhere, and not enough warships to protect the Atlantic fleet in a forward position.

Your second Baltic transport is reasonably useful for shipping inf/art to Leningrad, and the extra fighter can of course be used for trading on the eastern front, defending France, etc. as usual.

So you never actually attack London in an AA50 game – you just quietly threaten to attack it, thereby forcing the Allies to waste much more money on defense than you spent on creating the threat.