@axis_roll said in Balanced Mod [Anniversary 41]:
what (if any) is the difference between a warship and a ship? There’s several references to both in these.
I don’t know if Axis Roll’s list makes the following distinction or not, but in my mind “ship” is the overall term meaning all ships of all types. This overall designation can then be broken down into two broad groups: combat vessels (i.e warships, meaning vessels whose primary mission is to fight and whose primary “payload” are their weapons) and non-combat vessels. In A&A terms, there’s only one type of non-combat vessel: the naval transport. Everything else is a combat vessel, i.e. a warship. These warships can be further divided, if required, into three categories: surface-combat vessels (battleships, cruisers and destroyers), submarines (whose defining ability is their ability to operate under the surface, and which therefore are underwater weapon platforms), and aircraft carriers (whose defining ability is to deploy and recover aircraft, and therefore whose primary “payload” consists of surface-to-air and air-to-air weapons, meaning bombers and fighters).
@CWO-Marc said in Balanced Mod [Anniversary 41]:
@axis_roll said in Balanced Mod [Anniversary 41]:
what (if any) is the difference between a warship and a ship? There’s several references to both in these.
I don’t know if Axis Roll’s list makes the following distinction or not, […] whose primary “payload” consists of surface-to-air and air-to-air weapons, meaning bombers and fighters).
Actually, I meant to say air-to-surface, not surface-to-air, and I think it’s actually Argothair’s list rather than Axis Roll’s. I couldn’t figure out how to edit my original post.
@axis_roll said in Balanced Mod [Anniversary 41]:
Do defending ftrs have to intercept? In other words, they can decide to not go up to avoid the risk of being lost.
Does the AAA flak only shoot at remaining bombers, not fighters?
Nope, defending fighters are not required to intercept; that’s part of where the strategy comes in – it’s your choice whether to try to protect the factory or protect the fighters.
Yes, AAA flak only shoots at remaining bombers; the escorting fighters are assumed to be operating at extreme range, and therefore they begin returning home immediately after protecting the bombers from enemy interceptors (if any), and do not stick around to hover over the factory, so escorting fighters never interact with ground-based flak.
what (if any) is the difference between a warship and a ship? There’s several references to both in these.
In my personal vocabulary, I consistently use the following definitions:
“Ship” includes TT, SS, DD, CA, CV, BB.
“Warship” includes only SS, DD, CA, CV, BB.
“Surface ship” includes only TT, DD, CA, CV, BB.
“Surface warship” includes only DD, CA, CV, BB.
That said, for this variant’s NOs it is not very important to distinguish between different kinds of ships, so if you want to just say that the list is always “warship” for simplicity, that’s fine with me.
If so, do you have a side you prefer to play? I will go with either one. One last question… Low Luck or pure luck for battle outcome?
Once we decide these, then I can start to strategize more seriously and then we can arrange a date to start.
Nope, I’m happy to play either side! I cut the cake, so you get to pick your slice. :-)
I have a mild preference for low luck and no tech allowed so that we can more quickly arrive at a sense of where the game is unbalanced, but I certainly don’t insist on it. We can use a slightly tweaked version of your rules for low luck bombing, too – just add +1 to the damage table.
So @Argothair, this is the list we’re using to game play test?
Yes, I’ve been keeping the list at the front of the thread current. This is version 2.1; I had to nerf the Russian NOs heavilyi and nerf the UK NOs slightly after a live playtest with my buddy Corpo24.
@Argothair @axis_roll you guys are gonna post the game to a thread, right? 0.o
@Argothair said in Balanced Mod [Anniversary 41]:
In my personal vocabulary, I consistently use the following definitions:
“Ship” includes TT, SS, DD, CA, CV, BB.
“Warship” includes only SS, DD, CA, CV, BB.That said, for this variant’s NOs it is not very important to distinguish between different kinds of ships, so if you want to just say that the list is always “warship” for simplicity, that’s fine with me.
Therefor we can replace any reference to ‘ship’ with ‘warship’. Basically, transports don’t count
I guess this means subs are a little more important since they do have the capability to negate several National Objectives: Every Russian, 2 Japanese, 3 UK, 1 Italian and 1 American
I’m happy to play either side! I cut the cake, so you get to pick your slice. :-)
OK, as my moniker implies, axis_roll !
So I will take the bad guys…
I have a mild preference for low luck and no tech allowed so that we can more quickly arrive at a sense of where the game is unbalanced, but I certainly don’t insist on it. We can use a slightly tweaked version of your rules for low luck bombing, too – just add +1 to the damage table.
Yes, we’ll need to agree on that chart. I believe it was
Chicago Rules
1D6 = Damage
1 = 1
2,3 = 2
4,5 = 3
6 = 4
This game
1D6 = Damage
1 = 2
2,3 = 3
4,5 = 4
6 = 5
@vodot said in Balanced Mod [Anniversary 41]:
@Argothair @axis_roll you guys are gonna post the game to a thread, right? 0.o
What Argothair and I have done in the past was exchange emails with combat moves, used the A&A dice roll calculator to conduct battles (this emails roll results to players), then email/exchange battlemap files representing a countries end of turn position. We used/exchanged a spreadsheet for IPC tracking as well.
Not sure how we’ll do it going for this game. Argothair?
@axis_roll Yes, that sounds good to me – but I’m flattered, @vodot, and I’ll be happy to post a screenshot and summary every couple of full rounds to the forum so you can follow along.
Oh, and @axis_roll? Start when you like! It’s Germany’s turn; you have my email. :-)
@Argothair said in Balanced Mod [Anniversary 41]:
Oh, and @axis_roll? Start when you like! It’s Germany’s turn; you have my email. :-)
Wanted to run these by another member of our playing group first, just to ensure there is nothing too glaring (besides the Axis opportunities I see :dark_sunglasses: )
Then the Blitzkrieg will begin!
I forgot one more question. The black sea is open, correct?
The Dardenelles is not closed. True?
Oh, that’s interesting. I’m used to closing them, but I think leaving them open adds more options in an interesting way, and so far in our two playtests the Allies have had an advantage, so let’s leave them open! The Caucasus are such an important NO center; it’s important that the Axis have a realistic path to strike at them.
But in that case let’s add SZ 17 (the Black Sea) to the NOs that have to be free of enemy warships in order to collect the NOs for Mare Nostrum (Italy) and Mediterranean Shipping Routes (UK).
Yo hows this going ? There is a fellow AA member looking at more NOs in game.
Izz a need a saved
@SS-GEN update posted in the play board games section
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/32757/axis_roll-vs-argothair-aa50-balanced-mod-playtest
If anyone doesn’t want to read the entire game update thread, or if you want to skip my gaming buddy’s blatant pro-Allied propaganda, here’s the summary:
We played the first game out for five rounds, with axis_roll putting heavy Axis reinforcements into the Med via an early factory in France. As Britain, I built a factory in South Africa that didn’t quite pull its weight, and a US Pacific fleet that held the Japanese at bay but was not able to actually push them off of the core of their economy. axis_roll did a good job of shutting down Britain and Russia’s NOs, and Russia was so poor that even though German initially went south, Russia didn’t have the units to hold off the eventual German thrust, so we called the game when Russia’s position started to collapse. Germany also benefited from re-directing surplus African troops to Stalingrad via the open Dardanelles. The USA was earning slightly more than usual from the new NOs, but not nearly enough to compensate for Russia falling apart.
For the second game, to give Russia a bit more cash, we adjusted the Russian NOs to kick in on turn 2, and we switched sides. We are in the middle of round 6, and in my opinion, the game is still very much alive and kicking – fighting is hot in the Pacific, around India, and in eastern Europe. The Allies hold Scandinavia and are rapidly hoovering up Africa, but the Germans have western Europe locked down with big infantry garrisons – so the question is whether Moscow, Cairo, or the US Pacific fleet crack before the Germans and Italians run out of income after inevitably losing Africa.
We’re still struggling a bit to find ways to properly incentivize Pacific play – just giving the Allies money for holding territory in the Pacific doesn’t help much if holding the Pacific is impossible, so we’re not really seeing factories in India or China or Siberia or anything wild like that. There are too many d*** 1-IPC territories in the Allied Pacific sphere of influence, and too many starting Japanese transports and fighters to crush any initial pockets of resistance. It may be that just editing the NOs, by itself, isn’t enough to enable a truly competitive Kill-Japan-First strategy. Still, this game has seen a fairly convincing two-front war – the Pacific theater may be secondary, but it’s been a real front with meaningful losses and gains on both sides.
Yes the Pacific always seems to be the problem.:busts_in_silhouette:
Have you thought about making the islands in the Pacific more of a 3 Island Group No ?
Does Australia have any ships ?
Try giving UK Pacific more ships ?
Does UK make enough money to buy ships in Australia or India ?
@SS-GEN There are many ways to try and balance the game, as you have suggested. Argothair was trying to do so with his minimalist approach of only altering the National Objectives.
The new NOs are close, but not enough to help in India/South Pacific theater. India’s vulnerability in AA50 is way overstated, as well as Japans ability to help fight in Africa (even the med too!). I don’t know if just National Objective changes can ‘fix’ these issues.
@axis_roll said in Balanced Mod [Anniversary 41]:
@SS-GEN There are many ways to try and balance the game, as you have suggested. Argothair was trying to do so with his minimalist approach of only altering the National Objectives.
The new NOs are close, but not enough to help in India/South Pacific theater. India’s vulnerability in AA50 is way overstated, as well as Japans ability to help fight in Africa (even the med too!). I don’t know if just National Objective changes can ‘fix’ these issues.
If the NOs aren’t enough then ya setup change maybe ? But wasn’t Arg plan to change setup. I’m just saying for me its always comes down to Japan and slowing them down.
Then its take away some pieces from japan and maybe add that allies Factory that was discussed. Later
Looking forward to what you guys come up with. Good Luck
G40 SS OUT!
